|
web
newsgroups
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
OK....forget the code...how about some pointers?I am trying to write an HTTP/HTTPS proxy server in VB.Net 2005.
But, I don't really even know how the internal workings of a proxy should act. Does anyone have anything on the protocols used in handling requests by proxies? I have Googled my eyes out....and found nothing. (BTW, props to Google for refusing the ridiculous request for their search results.) Jim Hi Jim!
> I am trying to write an HTTP/HTTPS proxy server in VB.Net 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP> > But, I don't really even know how the internal workings of a proxy should > act. Does anyone have anything on the protocols used in handling requests by > proxies? http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1945.txt http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt "Jochen Kalmbach [MVP]" <nospam-Jochen.Kalmbach@holzma.de> wrote in message I guess what I need to find is a tool that will let me see both sides of the news:unBBcEzHGHA.984@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... > Hi Jim! >> I am trying to write an HTTP/HTTPS proxy server in VB.Net 2005. >> >> But, I don't really even know how the internal workings of a proxy should >> act. Does anyone have anything on the protocols used in handling requests >> by proxies? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1945.txt > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt conversation that a browser has with a server. For example.....All webpages are rendered in HTML, at their most basic level. So, does the browser get the HTML as a single file, then the CSS file, then files referred to in the HTML file (like graphics and such)? I will read the RFCs completely to see if my questions are answered there. Thanks for the links! Jim Hi Jim!
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP No. This might give you a hint... but what you need to understand is the >>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1945.txt >>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt > > > I guess what I need to find is a tool that will let me see both sides of the > conversation that a browser has with a server. HTTP-Protocol! > For example.....All webpages are rendered in HTML, at their most basic There are no "files" in the HTTP-protocol... only streams... and every > level. So, does the browser get the HTML as a single file, then the CSS > file, then files referred to in the HTML file (like graphics and such)? "link" has its own request for this data... > I will read the RFCs completely to see if my questions are answered there. It *will* answer your questions. Thats what RFSs are for.IMHO, it seems like there is not enough info from the OP:
At first, it seemed as if he were trying to write a proxy server (Why not simply get ISA?) If this is the question, then your code will need to bind to the network adapter(s) on the localhost so that they can filter / proxy the packets as they come through. For best results, look at the Microsoft ISA Server SDK. If you are trying to write your own proxy server from scratch, I personally think that there are not enough drugs, but here's where you would start: Make a Windows Service that listens on TCP Sockets and allows the user to specify at runtime what ports should be opened or closed. If you are trying to intercept the HTML that a browser requests, have a look at HTTPEXPL.EXE, one of the samples that ships on Visual Studio 97 Enterprise Edition, Disk 1. (I will now pause while you all go scrambling through your collections) Source code is included. It displays web pages in one pane, and the HTML Source in another, so you can see how it comes down. [For everyone else in here] I am uncertain if this unsupported free sample is distributable, so I choose not to post the code. But I think it should be distributable because it's an interesting piece of work. Perhaps an MVP can give us the OK? If you are trying to determine the order of download when a browser makes the request, (images, css, etc) simply write a test that connects to port 80, makes a request, and then carefully examine the stream that comes down. -- Show quoteHide quotePeace & happy computing, Mike Labosh, MCSD MCT "Escriba coda ergo sum." -- vbSensei "Jochen Kalmbach [MVP]" <nospam-Jochen.Kalmbach@holzma.de> wrote in message news:#KaxO0zHGHA.3728@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... > Hi Jim! > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP > >>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1945.txt > >>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt > > > > > > I guess what I need to find is a tool that will let me see both sides of the > > conversation that a browser has with a server. > > No. This might give you a hint... but what you need to understand is the > HTTP-Protocol! > > > For example.....All webpages are rendered in HTML, at their most basic > > level. So, does the browser get the HTML as a single file, then the CSS > > file, then files referred to in the HTML file (like graphics and such)? > > There are no "files" in the HTTP-protocol... only streams... and every > "link" has its own request for this data... > > > I will read the RFCs completely to see if my questions are answered there. > > It *will* answer your questions. Thats what RFSs are for. > > -- > Greetings > Jochen > > My blog about Win32 and .NET > http://blog.kalmbachnet.de/ Mike Labosh wrote:
> If you are trying to write your own proxy server from scratch, I personally That about sums it up. Something like that can't be a single synchronous > think that there are not enough drugs, but here's where you would start: > Make a Windows Service that listens on TCP Sockets and allows the user to > specify at runtime what ports should be opened or closed. process either. More like multithreaded async calls (many simultaneous requests from several clients). And that's assuming good knowledge of networking and the protocols involved (things like TCP, HTTP and SSL). I don't think I'd want to do this (plus the extra real-time filtering overhead - hopefully just URLs filtering and not content) in VB.Net either. Maybe I haven't been clear enough.....I will try again.
I want to have a VB.Net 2005 coded proxy that is multi-threaded to accept more than one client at a time. I want to be able to scan html pages for objectionable content (be it adult subject matter or advertisements) and remove them from the HTML shown in the browser before the HTML is given to the browser. I am only interested in scanning HTTP/HTTPS. I do not want to intercept any other data streams. This proxy may run as a server on the web for people to point to as they so desire to remove unwanted elements from their surfing, or it may be freely distributed to run locally on a person's PC or network. Is that a better explanation? Jim Jim wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > Maybe I haven't been clear enough.....I will try again. It's not that you haven't been clear (except a few minor details).> > I want to have a VB.Net 2005 coded proxy that is multi-threaded to accept > more than one client at a time. > > I want to be able to scan html pages for objectionable content (be it adult > subject matter or advertisements) and remove them from the HTML shown in the > browser before the HTML is given to the browser. > > I am only interested in scanning HTTP/HTTPS. I do not want to intercept any > other data streams. > > This proxy may run as a server on the web for people to point to as they so > desire to remove unwanted elements from their surfing, or it may be freely > distributed to run locally on a person's PC or network. > > Is that a better explanation? > > Jim > > If there's any explanation needed, it's why you even want to do this. For yourself (instead of using an existing proxy)? As a commercial product (good luck with that)? Is it supposed to have some special feature? Because right now it seems like you're almost reinventing the wheel, and without any real reasons (and perhaps not using the best language/tools for the job either; most such projects are usually in MFC/C++ or such)... Honestly, I don't think you're seeing the full extent of such a project. Running a TcpListener as a service doesn't seem hard at first, but then you gotta consider other things: -Filtering; you want to do 2 types of filtering: by address and by content. For the address you will need some block lists (by IP and domain name). Parsing this will can be costly (in terms of time spent), especially as the list grows (they're usually very long). You will have to try and benchmark various ways to do this, profile and optimize code a lot. For content filtering, this is only going to be harder (and perhaps slower). There may be some challenges you didn't expect either (tricks like people escaping some characters like s%65xsite.com and what not) -You will have to do everything you can to keep latency to a minimum (from the added network latency you can't get rid of, plus all your normal processing and filtering). And on the other hand, you will want to keep CPU load to a minimum on the computer serving as a proxy as the traffic/requests increases (not an easy thing to do here, considering language/platform choice too). Keeping memory usage down may be a significant problem too (lots of requests at the same time, lots of data to check against, etc) -Update/Maintain block lists. That alone is more than a full time job. I don't know how you expect to make and update these... Many companies employ several people just to maintain these for their own products. -Distributing updates. Yes, you'll have to have some update mechanism for your updates. At least for the block lists, but preferably also for the program (without requiring reboots or downtime). Don't expect to never have to update your program, it WILL happen, so you have to plan accordingly. -Maintenance should be very minimal. That includes updating. IT departments nowadays don't want extra overhead/things to babysit/look after. Which also brings me to the next point: -Stability. This thing should be rock stable - never EVER crash. Same story for memory leaks. This is *critical* but it won't be exactly easy. When it crashes (or starts consuming a lot of resources), people have to go fix the problem (see previous point), users (clients) get frustrated with your product (and understandably start looking at the competitor's offerings), etc. This will require you to write excellent code with great error handling, write unit tests (and code coverage) to ensure your code works 100% as intended, but also a LOT of load testing. Ideally you'd want code reviews too. Trying to find memory leaks or finding why your app consumes so much memory isn't always easy, quick nor fun... And your reputation is almost on the line (you don't want people to say "Jim [or whoever] writes buggy junk! it always crashes!" do you?) If you plan to sell it, you will also need to support it... -Features: people will want more features (especially if you wanted someone to pay for it). After all, tons of very good free proxies have loads of extra features... From supporting other protocols (like FTP, WebDAV, etc), reporting features, caching (DNS and pages to accelerate things and reduce BW usage), tons of options/configuration (perhaps things like allowing/blocking specific HTTP verbs), etc. -Coding time: to do all this properly (especially with all the testing, debugging, optimization and all) will take you maybe not forever, but still a very long time (especially if you're alone, and even more if you start counting all the other required overhead - things like designing, extensive documentation, planning, meetings, refactoring, etc). All this coding time multiplied by the average programmer's hourly wage will be a *LOT* of money in any case. Most likely more than it cost to buy any big commercial offering (like ISA Server). Definitely more than it would cost to buy a cheap computer (basic Dell plus some more RAM) and throw something like linux+squid on it (a good, free, time-tested, stable, full-featured, well documented, set-and-forget solution with support basically), or some appliance made from it, or another similar solution. Even as a internal IT dept project it would still be too costly... -Also, you mention scanning HTTPS, which is SSL encrypted BTW. Normal proxies don't filter/understand HTTPS traffic, they just pass it. If you want this too, that means you will also need to make some SSL gateway that will handle the SSL handshakes and everything else. More fun! -We're assuming prior (excellent) knowledge of the language/platform/framework, TCP/HTTP protocols, various RFCs, etc. And this is just the very tip of the iceberg. Hopefully it helps you realize what such a project encompasses. You make it sound like it should be really trivial, but it isn't.
Show quote
Hide quote
"john smith" <j***@smith.com> wrote in message I am sorry for the vagueness concerning the end freeware product, but that news:%23VgCEeDIGHA.3176@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > Jim wrote: >> Maybe I haven't been clear enough.....I will try again. >> >> I want to have a VB.Net 2005 coded proxy that is multi-threaded to accept >> more than one client at a time. >> >> I want to be able to scan html pages for objectionable content (be it >> adult subject matter or advertisements) and remove them from the HTML >> shown in the browser before the HTML is given to the browser. >> >> I am only interested in scanning HTTP/HTTPS. I do not want to intercept >> any other data streams. >> >> This proxy may run as a server on the web for people to point to as they >> so desire to remove unwanted elements from their surfing, or it may be >> freely distributed to run locally on a person's PC or network. >> >> Is that a better explanation? >> >> Jim > > It's not that you haven't been clear (except a few minor details). > > If there's any explanation needed, it's why you even want to do this. For > yourself (instead of using an existing proxy)? As a commercial product > (good luck with that)? Is it supposed to have some special feature? > Because right now it seems like you're almost reinventing the wheel, and > without any real reasons (and perhaps not using the best language/tools > for the job either; most such projects are usually in MFC/C++ or such)... is necessary at this time. > I don't expect the code that tracks the ads and adult content to be easy to > Honestly, I don't think you're seeing the full extent of such a project. > Running a TcpListener as a service doesn't seem hard at first, but then > you gotta consider other things: > > -Filtering; you want to do 2 types of filtering: by address and by > content. For the address you will need some block lists (by IP and domain > name). Parsing this will can be costly (in terms of time spent), > especially as the list grows (they're usually very long). You will have to > try and benchmark various ways to do this, profile and optimize code a > lot. For content filtering, this is only going to be harder (and perhaps > slower). There may be some challenges you didn't expect either (tricks > like people escaping some characters like s%65xsite.com and what not) code. But, that's the part I look forward to most of all. I like a challenge. "Ahhh!" you might say..."Then why don't you accept the proxy portion as a challenge?" Basically because the underlying portions will be so challenging - as you have correctly pointed out. I'd rather devote my time to those portions of the task, if possible. > -You will have to do everything you can to keep latency to a minimum (from I think I have already worked out an algorithim that will do nicely in these > the added network latency you can't get rid of, plus all your normal > processing and filtering). And on the other hand, you will want to keep > CPU load to a minimum on the computer serving as a proxy as the > traffic/requests increases (not an easy thing to do here, considering > language/platform choice too). Keeping memory usage down may be a > significant problem too (lots of requests at the same time, lots of data > to check against, etc) areas. > -Update/Maintain block lists. That alone is more than a full time job. I Also already pseudo-coded.> don't know how you expect to make and update these... Many companies > employ several people just to maintain these for their own products. > -Distributing updates. Yes, you'll have to have some update mechanism for Got that planned too.> your updates. At least for the block lists, but preferably also for the > program (without requiring reboots or downtime). Don't expect to never > have to update your program, it WILL happen, so you have to plan > accordingly. > I agree. It will be completely hands off after the installation. > -Maintenance should be very minimal. That includes updating. IT > departments nowadays don't want extra overhead/things to babysit/look > after. Self-repairing and updating. >Which also brings me to the next point: While nobody can guarantee that.....that will be the goal.> > -Stability. This thing should be rock stable - never EVER crash. >Same story for memory leaks. This is *critical* but it won't be exactly I agree completely. That's why I want to concentrate on the core services >easy. When it crashes (or starts consuming a lot of resources), people have >to go fix the problem (see previous point), users (clients) get frustrated >with your product (and understandably start looking at the competitor's >offerings), etc. This will require you to write excellent code with great >error handling, write unit tests (and code coverage) to ensure your code >works 100% as intended, but also a LOT of load testing. Ideally you'd want >code reviews too. Trying to find memory leaks or finding why your app >consumes so much memory isn't always easy, quick nor fun... And your >reputation is almost on the line (you don't want people to say "Jim [or >whoever] writes buggy junk! it always crashes!" do you?) If you plan to >sell it, you will also need to support it... and not the surrounding proxy services. I have enough to do without re-inventing the proxy wheel. It will be freeware and it will be supported. > It will be free.....always free.> -Features: people will want more features (especially if you wanted > someone to pay for it). After all, tons of very good free proxies have > loads of extra features... From supporting other protocols (like FTP, > WebDAV, etc), reporting features, caching (DNS and pages to accelerate > things and reduce BW usage), tons of options/configuration (perhaps things > like allowing/blocking specific HTTP verbs), etc. Show quoteHide quote > It will be a costly undertaking. But, I have taken that into consideration.> -Coding time: to do all this properly (especially with all the testing, > debugging, optimization and all) will take you maybe not forever, but > still a very long time (especially if you're alone, and even more if you > start counting all the other required overhead - things like designing, > extensive documentation, planning, meetings, refactoring, etc). All this > coding time multiplied by the average programmer's hourly wage will be a > *LOT* of money in any case. Most likely more than it cost to buy any big > commercial offering (like ISA Server). Definitely more than it would cost > to buy a cheap computer (basic Dell plus some more RAM) and throw > something like linux+squid on it (a good, free, time-tested, stable, > full-featured, well documented, set-and-forget solution with support > basically), or some appliance made from it, or another similar solution. > Even as a internal IT dept project it would still be too costly... > I have SSL components that should make this much easier to incorporate.> -Also, you mention scanning HTTPS, which is SSL encrypted BTW. Normal > proxies don't filter/understand HTTPS traffic, they just pass it. If you > want this too, that means you will also need to make some SSL gateway that > will handle the SSL handshakes and everything else. More fun! > You are right. This is a complex project, but the core proxy services are > -We're assuming prior (excellent) knowledge of the > language/platform/framework, TCP/HTTP protocols, various RFCs, etc. > > And this is just the very tip of the iceberg. Hopefully it helps you > realize what such a project encompasses. You make it sound like it should > be really trivial, but it isn't. not. That's why I hoped to get some assistance with the basic proxy services. Then I can concentrate on the more complex portions of the code. Thanks for your post! Jim Just ask Google. They offer this kind of functionality as a service
already.... well they do for the Peoples Republic of China at least. tm Show quoteHide quote "Jim" <reply@groups.please> wrote in message news:zFZBf.1299$dF5.601@bignews1.bellsouth.net... > > "john smith" <j***@smith.com> wrote in message > news:%23VgCEeDIGHA.3176@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > Jim wrote: > >> Maybe I haven't been clear enough.....I will try again. > >> > >> I want to have a VB.Net 2005 coded proxy that is multi-threaded to accept > >> more than one client at a time. > >> > >> I want to be able to scan html pages for objectionable content (be it > >> adult subject matter or advertisements) and remove them from the HTML > >> shown in the browser before the HTML is given to the browser. > >> > >> I am only interested in scanning HTTP/HTTPS. I do not want to intercept > >> any other data streams. > >> > >> This proxy may run as a server on the web for people to point to as they > >> so desire to remove unwanted elements from their surfing, or it may be > >> freely distributed to run locally on a person's PC or network. > >> > >> Is that a better explanation? > >> > >> Jim > > > > It's not that you haven't been clear (except a few minor details). > > > > If there's any explanation needed, it's why you even want to do this. For > > yourself (instead of using an existing proxy)? As a commercial product > > (good luck with that)? Is it supposed to have some special feature? > > Because right now it seems like you're almost reinventing the wheel, and > > without any real reasons (and perhaps not using the best language/tools > > for the job either; most such projects are usually in MFC/C++ or such)... > > I am sorry for the vagueness concerning the end freeware product, but that > is necessary at this time. > > > > > Honestly, I don't think you're seeing the full extent of such a project. > > Running a TcpListener as a service doesn't seem hard at first, but then > > you gotta consider other things: > > > > -Filtering; you want to do 2 types of filtering: by address and by > > content. For the address you will need some block lists (by IP and domain > > name). Parsing this will can be costly (in terms of time spent), > > especially as the list grows (they're usually very long). You will have to > > try and benchmark various ways to do this, profile and optimize code a > > lot. For content filtering, this is only going to be harder (and perhaps > > slower). There may be some challenges you didn't expect either (tricks > > like people escaping some characters like s%65xsite.com and what not) > > I don't expect the code that tracks the ads and adult content to be easy to > code. But, that's the part I look forward to most of all. I like a > challenge. > > "Ahhh!" you might say..."Then why don't you accept the proxy portion as a > challenge?" Basically because the underlying portions will be so > challenging - as you have correctly pointed out. I'd rather devote my time > to those portions of the task, if possible. > > > -You will have to do everything you can to keep latency to a minimum (from > > the added network latency you can't get rid of, plus all your normal > > processing and filtering). And on the other hand, you will want to keep > > CPU load to a minimum on the computer serving as a proxy as the > > traffic/requests increases (not an easy thing to do here, considering > > language/platform choice too). Keeping memory usage down may be a > > significant problem too (lots of requests at the same time, lots of data > > to check against, etc) > > I think I have already worked out an algorithim that will do nicely in these > areas. > > > -Update/Maintain block lists. That alone is more than a full time job. I > > don't know how you expect to make and update these... Many companies > > employ several people just to maintain these for their own products. > > Also already pseudo-coded. > > > -Distributing updates. Yes, you'll have to have some update mechanism for > > your updates. At least for the block lists, but preferably also for the > > program (without requiring reboots or downtime). Don't expect to never > > have to update your program, it WILL happen, so you have to plan > > accordingly. > > Got that planned too. > > > > > -Maintenance should be very minimal. That includes updating. IT > > departments nowadays don't want extra overhead/things to babysit/look > > after. > > I agree. It will be completely hands off after the installation. > Self-repairing and updating. > > >Which also brings me to the next point: > > > > -Stability. This thing should be rock stable - never EVER crash. > > While nobody can guarantee that.....that will be the goal. > > >Same story for memory leaks. This is *critical* but it won't be exactly > >easy. When it crashes (or starts consuming a lot of resources), people have > >to go fix the problem (see previous point), users (clients) get frustrated > >with your product (and understandably start looking at the competitor's > >offerings), etc. This will require you to write excellent code with great > >error handling, write unit tests (and code coverage) to ensure your code > >works 100% as intended, but also a LOT of load testing. Ideally you'd want > >code reviews too. Trying to find memory leaks or finding why your app > >consumes so much memory isn't always easy, quick nor fun... And your > >reputation is almost on the line (you don't want people to say "Jim [or > >whoever] writes buggy junk! it always crashes!" do you?) If you plan to > >sell it, you will also need to support it... > > I agree completely. That's why I want to concentrate on the core services > and not the surrounding proxy services. > > I have enough to do without re-inventing the proxy wheel. > > It will be freeware and it will be supported. > > > > > -Features: people will want more features (especially if you wanted > > someone to pay for it). After all, tons of very good free proxies have > > loads of extra features... From supporting other protocols (like FTP, > > WebDAV, etc), reporting features, caching (DNS and pages to accelerate > > things and reduce BW usage), tons of options/configuration (perhaps things > > like allowing/blocking specific HTTP verbs), etc. > > It will be free.....always free. > > > > > -Coding time: to do all this properly (especially with all the testing, > > debugging, optimization and all) will take you maybe not forever, but > > still a very long time (especially if you're alone, and even more if you > > start counting all the other required overhead - things like designing, > > extensive documentation, planning, meetings, refactoring, etc). All this > > coding time multiplied by the average programmer's hourly wage will be a > > *LOT* of money in any case. Most likely more than it cost to buy any big > > commercial offering (like ISA Server). Definitely more than it would cost > > to buy a cheap computer (basic Dell plus some more RAM) and throw > > something like linux+squid on it (a good, free, time-tested, stable, > > full-featured, well documented, set-and-forget solution with support > > basically), or some appliance made from it, or another similar solution. > > Even as a internal IT dept project it would still be too costly... > > It will be a costly undertaking. But, I have taken that into consideration. > > > > > -Also, you mention scanning HTTPS, which is SSL encrypted BTW. Normal > > proxies don't filter/understand HTTPS traffic, they just pass it. If you > > want this too, that means you will also need to make some SSL gateway that > > will handle the SSL handshakes and everything else. More fun! > > I have SSL components that should make this much easier to incorporate. > > > > > -We're assuming prior (excellent) knowledge of the > > language/platform/framework, TCP/HTTP protocols, various RFCs, etc. > > > > And this is just the very tip of the iceberg. Hopefully it helps you > > realize what such a project encompasses. You make it sound like it should > > be really trivial, but it isn't. > > You are right. This is a complex project, but the core proxy services are > not. That's why I hoped to get some assistance with the basic proxy > services. Then I can concentrate on the more complex portions of the code. > > Thanks for your post! > > Jim > > Mike Labosh wrote:
>I am MVPs have no authority to give any such OK.> uncertain if this unsupported free sample is distributable, so I > choose not to post the code. But I think it should be distributable > because it's an interesting piece of work. Perhaps an MVP can give > us the OK? That said, in my experience unsupported free samples have always been distributable, but the EULA from VS97 would be the definitive source of an answer to that question. -cd > > uncertain if this unsupported free sample is distributable, so I Poor phrasing on my part. I know this.> > choose not to post the code. But I think it should be distributable > > because it's an interesting piece of work. Perhaps an MVP can give > > us the OK? > > MVPs have no authority to give any such OK. > That said, in my experience unsupported free samples have always been This is what I meant, that an MVP would know better than me whether it is,> distributable, but the EULA from VS97 would be the definitive source of an > answer to that question. not make the decision. I will go look at the EULA. -- Peace & happy computing, Mike Labosh, MCSD MCT "Escriba coda ergo sum." -- vbSensei Here's an interesting question. What binds a person to obey the EULA? I
imagine you can't be held to its terms unless you buy the product itself. So, can a person who has not bought a product free to violate the product's EULA (assuming such actions are not against the law in and of themselves)? I ask this because your response to "can the sample code be posted?" implies the EULA is the 'authority' on this subject. But if someone has not bought the product themselves (say, a relative or friend) then they could post such sample code if the EULA is all that would be violated. So why not allow someone who HAS bought the product from doing it too? This is kind of ass-backwards in a certain sense. It seems someone who buys the product will have less rights (in some situations) than someone who didn't. I make this point since I think the EULA should never limit someone more than someone who hasn't bought the product. That is, it should let you know the limit of your *NEW* CAPABILITIES made possiblr by the product you've bought, and not increase your EXISTING restrictions. It should make clear what NOBODY can do, not what the person who bought the product can't do. And if someone who hasn't bought the product CAN do something, then the EULA should not restrict someone who has bought the product from doing it. It's a sublte point, but it makes sense... Note that a person who has not bought the product has no access to many elements of the product, so their inability to do some actions is 'physical' (that is, they *can't* do it in contrast to the are *not allowed* to do it). For example, a person who doesn't have a legal copy still can't make other copies and distribute. So, I'm not implying a person who hasn't bought the product can violate, say, copyright rules (since these a based on common law, not 'contract law' imposed by a Eula)... [==P==] PS - I would have posted this in the 'general' section; but this is a response to a post here, so I feel it's an approriate place to post this... Show quoteHide quote "Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]" <cpdaniel_remove_this_and_nospam@mvps.org.nospam> wrote in message news:uhDtpn2HGHA.2444@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... > Mike Labosh wrote: >>I am >> uncertain if this unsupported free sample is distributable, so I >> choose not to post the code. But I think it should be distributable >> because it's an interesting piece of work. Perhaps an MVP can give >> us the OK? > > MVPs have no authority to give any such OK. > > That said, in my experience unsupported free samples have always been > distributable, but the EULA from VS97 would be the definitive source of an > answer to that question. > > -cd > > "Peter Oliphant" <poliph***@RoundTripInc.com> schrieb: Does not having a drivers license grant you the right to drive as fast as > Here's an interesting question. What binds a person to obey the EULA? I > imagine you can't be held to its terms unless you buy the product itself. you want? There are several other laws which prevent the manufacturer's rights (copyright in the U.S., "Urheberrecht" in Germany and Austria, for example). -- M S Herfried K. Wagner M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> | There are several other laws which prevent the manufacturer's rights "prevent" or did you perhaps mean "protect"?| (copyright in the U.S., "Urheberrecht" in Germany and Austria, for example). -- Show quoteHide quoteHope this helps Jay [MVP - Outlook] ..NET Application Architect, Enthusiast, & Evangelist T.S. Bradley - http://www.tsbradley.net "Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hirf-spam-me-here@gmx.at> wrote in message news:%2332GhbgIGHA.3984@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... | "Peter Oliphant" <poliph***@RoundTripInc.com> schrieb: | > Here's an interesting question. What binds a person to obey the EULA? I | > imagine you can't be held to its terms unless you buy the product itself. | | Does not having a drivers license grant you the right to drive as fast as | you want? | | There are several other laws which prevent the manufacturer's rights | (copyright in the U.S., "Urheberrecht" in Germany and Austria, for example). | | -- | M S Herfried K. Wagner | M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> | V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> | Jay,
"Jay B. Harlow [MVP - Outlook]" <Jay_Harlow_***@tsbradley.net> schrieb: Ooops. I actually wanted to type "protect". Thank you for pointing this >| There are several other laws which prevent the manufacturer's rights > | (copyright in the U.S., "Urheberrecht" in Germany and Austria, for > example). > "prevent" or did you perhaps mean "protect"? important detail out! -- M S Herfried K. Wagner M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> >>Does not having a drivers license grant you the right to drive as fast as No. But that's why I said one would still be bound by PUBLIC law. Using your >>you want? analogy, when you buy a car does the manufacturer of the car require you to sign a document establishing contractually legally binding rules you must follow when driving the car you bought from them that did not pre-exist BEFORE you bought the car? No. Typically when buy something the manufacturer does not impose restrictions you didn't have before. Heck, one typically buys a product to extend one's capabilities, not have the restricted? I want to be very clear here. In this thread, someone asked if they could post some source code. Someone else said it was up to the EULA. I'm saying it shouldn't be up to the EULA. If it's legal for someone to do who hasn't bought the product it should also be legal for someone to do it who HAS bought the product... [==P==] Show quoteHide quote "Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hirf-spam-me-here@gmx.at> wrote in message news:%2332GhbgIGHA.3984@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > "Peter Oliphant" <poliph***@RoundTripInc.com> schrieb: >> Here's an interesting question. What binds a person to obey the EULA? I >> imagine you can't be held to its terms unless you buy the product itself. > > Does not having a drivers license grant you the right to drive as fast as > you want? > > There are several other laws which prevent the manufacturer's rights > (copyright in the U.S., "Urheberrecht" in Germany and Austria, for > example). > > -- > M S Herfried K. Wagner > M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> > V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> Hi Cor,
GREAT link about this subject! Thanx! : ) [==P==] Show quoteHide quote "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message news:ONTo4FqIGHA.1676@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... > Peter, > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA > > Cor > If you have not bought a piece of code and nobody who has bought it has the
right to publish it then how could you ever have seen it to publish it yourself? If you reply that you just got hold of it when someone else published it illegally that is not good enough - It is the equivalent to saying that you can keep someones wallet if a thief steals it and then leaves it lying around for you to pick up. Show quoteHide quote "Peter Oliphant" <poliph***@RoundTripInc.com> wrote in message news:e6GBw$fIGHA.3936@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > Here's an interesting question. What binds a person to obey the EULA? I > imagine you can't be held to its terms unless you buy the product itself. > > So, can a person who has not bought a product free to violate the > product's EULA (assuming such actions are not against the law in and of > themselves)? > > I ask this because your response to "can the sample code be posted?" > implies the EULA is the 'authority' on this subject. But if someone has > not bought the product themselves (say, a relative or friend) then they > could post such sample code if the EULA is all that would be violated. So > why not allow someone who HAS bought the product from doing it too? > > This is kind of ass-backwards in a certain sense. It seems someone who > buys the product will have less rights (in some situations) than someone > who didn't. I make this point since I think the EULA should never limit > someone more than someone who hasn't bought the product. That is, it > should let you know the limit of your *NEW* CAPABILITIES made possiblr by > the product you've bought, and not increase your EXISTING restrictions. It > should make clear what NOBODY can do, not what the person who bought the > product can't do. And if someone who hasn't bought the product CAN do > something, then the EULA should not restrict someone who has bought the > product from doing it. It's a sublte point, but it makes sense... > > Note that a person who has not bought the product has no access to many > elements of the product, so their inability to do some actions is > 'physical' (that is, they *can't* do it in contrast to the are *not > allowed* to do it). For example, a person who doesn't have a legal copy > still can't make other copies and distribute. So, I'm not implying a > person who hasn't bought the product can violate, say, copyright rules > (since these a based on common law, not 'contract law' imposed by a > Eula)... > > [==P==] > > PS - I would have posted this in the 'general' section; but this is a > response to a post here, so I feel it's an approriate place to post > this... > > "Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]" <cpdaniel_remove_this_and_nospam@mvps.org.nospam> > wrote in message news:uhDtpn2HGHA.2444@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... >> Mike Labosh wrote: >>>I am >>> uncertain if this unsupported free sample is distributable, so I >>> choose not to post the code. But I think it should be distributable >>> because it's an interesting piece of work. Perhaps an MVP can give >>> us the OK? >> >> MVPs have no authority to give any such OK. >> >> That said, in my experience unsupported free samples have always been >> distributable, but the EULA from VS97 would be the definitive source of >> an answer to that question. >> >> -cd >> >> > > Nick Hounsome wrote:
> If you have not bought a piece of code and nobody who has bought it has the Here! Here! (or whatever)> right to publish it then how could you ever have seen it to publish it > yourself? > > If you reply that you just got hold of it when someone else published it > illegally that is not good enough - It is the equivalent to saying that you > can keep someones wallet if a thief steals it and then leaves it lying > around for you to pick up. Scott
Show quote
Hide quote
"Jim" <reply@groups.please> wrote in message
http://www.ethereal.com/
news:yIIAf.2496$5O2.1674@bignews4.bellsouth.net... > > "Jochen Kalmbach [MVP]" <nospam-Jochen.Kalmbach@holzma.de> wrote in > message news:unBBcEzHGHA.984@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... >> Hi Jim! >>> I am trying to write an HTTP/HTTPS proxy server in VB.Net 2005. >>> >>> But, I don't really even know how the internal workings of a proxy >>> should act. Does anyone have anything on the protocols used in handling >>> requests by proxies? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP >> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1945.txt >> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt > > I guess what I need to find is a tool that will let me see both sides of > the conversation that a browser has with a server. Try ethereal 
Other interesting topics
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
