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Rewrite ...discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should rewrite their app in .NET. What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? How much longer will COM objects live on? How stable is the Framework? If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would that make a differnce on the decision? What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when you decided to do a rewrite? Are their any security benefits? I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. Thanks Stan,
Crossposting to so many newsgroups looks for most regulars in newsgroups, nothing more than the start of a Troll Thread. Sorry if I misinterpret Cor Show quoteHide quote "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> schreef in bericht news:e0dSfJ%23cGHA.380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > rewrite their app in .NET. > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? > > How much longer will COM objects live on? > > How stable is the Framework? > > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > that make a differnce on the decision? > > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > you decided to do a rewrite? > > Are their any security benefits? > > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > Thanks > > No just thought a good cross section would lead to some insightful
discussion. All the groups areDotNet, and cover differnet topics covering what I am looking for. (Security, Performance, ...) I am really just trying to gain a perspective on the pros of rewriting a VB 6 app in Dot Net. Show quoteHide quote "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message news:%23HvUNn%23cGHA.4072@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Stan, > > Crossposting to so many newsgroups looks for most regulars in newsgroups, > nothing more than the start of a Troll Thread. > > Sorry if I misinterpret > > Cor > > "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> schreef in bericht > news:e0dSfJ%23cGHA.380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general > > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > > rewrite their app in .NET. > > > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? > > > > How much longer will COM objects live on? > > > > How stable is the Framework? > > > > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > > that make a differnce on the decision? > > > > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > > you decided to do a rewrite? > > > > Are their any security benefits? > > > > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Stan,
If it is a let say for the developper dead application, which needs never maintenance than let say changing some values which could have been external but just need to be changed one time a year, than there is probably few need for changing if you are sure that it is that dead that even the hardware and OS will not change the comming ten years. In my idea is the last an utopia thought by people with no expirience in that. Otherwise it is wise in my opinion at least to investigate what it does mean. However, a newsgroup can never know all your ins and outs and can in my opinion therefore give you no answers on that. Big banks (and companies like that) are seldom changing there software which is not direct seen by the client, just because not changing it is moslty the safest. They came in trouble before the year 2000 when they had to make changes. It was hard to get the hands to do that in that time. Just my idea Cor Show quoteHide quote "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> schreef in bericht news:e1u1Gt%23cGHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > No just thought a good cross section would lead to some insightful > discussion. All the groups areDotNet, and cover differnet topics covering > what I am looking for. (Security, Performance, ...) I am really just > trying > to gain a perspective on the pros of rewriting a VB 6 app in Dot Net. > > > "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message > news:%23HvUNn%23cGHA.4072@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> Stan, >> >> Crossposting to so many newsgroups looks for most regulars in newsgroups, >> nothing more than the start of a Troll Thread. >> >> Sorry if I misinterpret >> >> Cor >> >> "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> schreef in bericht >> news:e0dSfJ%23cGHA.380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >> > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general >> > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to > see >> > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they > should >> > rewrite their app in .NET. >> > >> > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? >> > >> > How much longer will COM objects live on? >> > >> > How stable is the Framework? >> > >> > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, > would >> > that make a differnce on the decision? >> > >> > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect > when >> > you decided to do a rewrite? >> > >> > Are their any security benefits? >> > >> > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help >> > support >> > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > >> >> > > I would probably begin a rewrite in a very controlled way, hopefully the app
is well modularized where you could take bits at a time? i.e. treat it as 40 seperate applications with a shared base? Cheers, Greg Young MVP - C# Show quoteHide quote "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> wrote in message news:e0dSfJ%23cGHA.380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > rewrite their app in .NET. > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? > > How much longer will COM objects live on? > > How stable is the Framework? > > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > that make a differnce on the decision? > > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > you decided to do a rewrite? > > Are their any security benefits? > > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > Thanks > > I have just started programming in VB.net and learning it as I go.
I have been programming ( to pay my bills ) since '98 and some things I learned in school are outdated already, and some have changed so much I am outdated. Some languages I have learned at some places such as ( 4GL ) I cannot use anywhere else, and others were so unique its not beneficial to continue in them. From my perspective, I think it would be beneficial to start updating/learning .net. A programmers life span is about 5 years ( apparently ) before they need to upgrade themselves. Your programmers would be learning an up to date programming language while maintaining your old one. Basically you would be funding the "schooling" for them to update their skills. If you choose not to update for 10 years, how long will your programmers choose to write code in vb6? At least that way - you will see any hiccups that will arise in the future, and perhaps even code some things in VB6 differently to make a transition later on more easily. If you set aside 3 or 4 hours a week per programmer ( an afternoon ) where they can start to program in .net, / try to take a module and bring it up to the new version - This would at least give you an idea of their complaints or likes about the new version. Do it now, while it is still financially feasible to take a couple hours off each programmers "income time". Im programming in my current languages, but I have realized... to learn something new that "might" help me out later on, is more beneficial then to learn nothing new at all. Why not ask your programmers what they would want to do? - a happy worker is a productive worker. My 2 cents. Miro -And if anyone else reads this on the vb.net newsgroups - Thank you for you help as I walk up the learning curve. Show quoteHide quote "Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> wrote in message news:e0dSfJ%23cGHA.380@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > rewrite their app in .NET. > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? > > How much longer will COM objects live on? > > How stable is the Framework? > > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > that make a differnce on the decision? > > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > you decided to do a rewrite? > > Are their any security benefits? > > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > Thanks > > Hello Stan,
I'll answer some questions inline. > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general Generally Line-Of-Business apps were being rewritten in .Net before larger > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > rewrite their app in .NET. > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? system apps. New app development has moved substantially to .Net, although there are some folks still developing new apps in older technologies. Now that SOA apps are gaining in popularity, a proliferation of web-service-based apps/services are emerging, largely in .Net because it is so much easier to develop and debug them there. > I'm not in the product groups, so I cannot say. I don't believe that COM is > How much longer will COM objects live on? going away any time soon. However, with the flexibility of WCF, I'm not sure that COM is the first choice I'd jump to for new components that I wish to share and manage. > Extraordinarily stable. Probably the most stable chunk of software that > How stable is the Framework? Microsoft has ever produced. > Nope. In 10 years, you will change technology twice. When you change > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > that make a differnce on the decision? depends on you, not on the technology available at the time. > Nope. See above. In Microsoft IT, we tend to replatform apps once every > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > you decided to do a rewrite? four to six years. > Yes, but it depends on what you are doing. Normally, when folks rewrite, > Are their any security benefits? they are also adding features and often changing the architecture of the app to meet newly understood requirements. The new architecture will have a greater impact on security (in a good or bad way) than the language or technology. > To the core question: why rewrite in .Net: Because you want to add features > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > Thanks > > to your app, and you want to update the architecture to meet new needs, and you want to maintain it for a while, and your developers know, or want to know, new technologies. All pretty typical reasons. I don't normally advocate rewriting for the sake of rewriting. On the other hand, if you have an app that is eight years old, it probably needs updating, because the requirements were gathered nine years ago, and no matter how good your analysts were, unless they were good at predicting the future, your app is missing some things that you need to add. If your app is two years old, I'd be curious about why it isn't in .net already. The platform has been out for many years now. If you don't think the needs are going to change for a while, leave it. The older technologies aren't broken. They are just technologies. All technologies change. That shouldn't be a reason, by itself, to change your app. Change your app when the requirements change. Use fairly new technologies each time. Simple as that. -- --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] Enterprise Architect MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. --
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"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <nickmalik@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message Simple - VB 7.x (.net 1.x) was a lousy upgrade for VB 6 programmers. VBnews:hqadnWJk3Ouvm__ZnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@comcast.com... > > Hello Stan, > > I'll answer some questions inline. > > > To the core question: why rewrite in .Net: Because you want to add features > to your app, and you want to update the architecture to meet new needs, and > you want to maintain it for a while, and your developers know, or want to > know, new technologies. All pretty typical reasons. I don't normally > advocate rewriting for the sake of rewriting. On the other hand, if you > have an app that is eight years old, it probably needs updating, because the > requirements were gathered nine years ago, and no matter how good your > analysts were, unless they were good at predicting the future, your app is > missing some things that you need to add. > > If your app is two years old, I'd be curious about why it isn't in .net > already. The platform has been out for many years now. > 2005 is a much better, but not perfect, upgrade path for VB 6 programmers. > If you don't think the needs are going to change for a while, leave it. Agreed. Don't rewrite an application just because there is a newThe > older technologies aren't broken. They are just technologies. All > technologies change. That shouldn't be a reason, by itself, to change your > app. Change your app when the requirements change. Use fairly new > technologies each time. Simple as that. > technology. Any rewrite should be for major revisions - minor revisions can be done in the original technology/language. Mike Ober. Thanks for the input.
We are considering doing a rewrite of an app that is 7 years old, and you are right it is just missing functionality. And the new functionality added into the app, was forced into the structures to make it work. The app also has several modules all basically its own application, but they all work together. If we do the rewrite it would be to unify everything, so that they all can share the same business rules and interface. And to create a better database design to help make maintenance and support a lot easier. My biggest concern is that we are a small shop and the rewrite will take about 2 years. I don't want to wait too long and be behind the eightball, but I also don't want to move forward with a technology that is still developing itself. I know no one can answer these questions for me, but it's still good to get feedback from people dealing with the same issues. Thanks Show quoteHide quote "Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <nickmalik@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message news:hqadnWJk3Ouvm__ZnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@comcast.com... > Hello Stan, > > I'll answer some questions inline. > > > This post is mostly for discussion. Why rewrite in .NET? Just a general > > discussion not related to any specific details. I was just looking to see > > what reasons developers are looking to, to help decide whether they should > > rewrite their app in .NET. > > > > What are the trends being observed of Microsoft when it comes to .Net? > > Generally Line-Of-Business apps were being rewritten in .Net before larger > system apps. New app development has moved substantially to .Net, although > there are some folks still developing new apps in older technologies. Now > that SOA apps are gaining in popularity, a proliferation of > web-service-based apps/services are emerging, largely in .Net because it is > so much easier to develop and debug them there. > > > > > How much longer will COM objects live on? > > I'm not in the product groups, so I cannot say. I don't believe that COM is > going away any time soon. However, with the flexibility of WCF, I'm not > sure that COM is the first choice I'd jump to for new components that I wish > to share and manage. > > > > > How stable is the Framework? > > Extraordinarily stable. Probably the most stable chunk of software that > Microsoft has ever produced. > > > > > If the goal is to maintain a software package for the next 10 years, would > > that make a differnce on the decision? > > Nope. In 10 years, you will change technology twice. When you change > depends on you, not on the technology available at the time. > > > > > What if a rewrite would take approximately 2 years, would that affect when > > you decided to do a rewrite? > > Nope. See above. In Microsoft IT, we tend to replatform apps once every > four to six years. > > > > > Are their any security benefits? > > Yes, but it depends on what you are doing. Normally, when folks rewrite, > they are also adding features and often changing the architecture of the app > to meet newly understood requirements. The new architecture will have a > greater impact on security (in a good or bad way) than the language or > technology. > > > > > I am looking for opinions, but also links to facts that can help support > > your case. I'm hoping this can become a good discussion. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > To the core question: why rewrite in .Net: Because you want to add features > to your app, and you want to update the architecture to meet new needs, and > you want to maintain it for a while, and your developers know, or want to > know, new technologies. All pretty typical reasons. I don't normally > advocate rewriting for the sake of rewriting. On the other hand, if you > have an app that is eight years old, it probably needs updating, because the > requirements were gathered nine years ago, and no matter how good your > analysts were, unless they were good at predicting the future, your app is > missing some things that you need to add. > > If your app is two years old, I'd be curious about why it isn't in .net > already. The platform has been out for many years now. > > If you don't think the needs are going to change for a while, leave it. The > older technologies aren't broken. They are just technologies. All > technologies change. That shouldn't be a reason, by itself, to change your > app. Change your app when the requirements change. Use fairly new > technologies each time. Simple as that. > > -- > --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] > Enterprise Architect > MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster > http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik > > Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not > representative of my employer. > I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a > programmer helping programmers. > -- > > Stan,
I'm a developer and I've been at my company for 6 years. I developed well over 60 programs in VB6 and when .Net came out I debated whether we should move. The decision was left up to me. I made the decision to go with .Net and have spent the last two and a half years rewriting everything in .Net so we don't have to deal with two languages. My reasoning for doing it: 1. Support for VB6 in terms of service packs is going away sometime. 2. The new IDE is so much more productive than VB.Old. 3. I came from a C++ background so .Net is more familiar to me and it's not as daunting to me as those that learned only VB6 or before. 4. COM isn't going away any time soon. The framework works very well with COM, whether it's calling COM or being called by COM. 5. .Net is faster and more stable than VB6. 6. I had to write some programs for handhelds using eMbedded Visual Basic. .Net includes the Compact Framework. If you've ever had to develop using eVB you know why this is a no-brainer. I don't want to start the religious war of VB6 vs. .Net but I did want to put forth my reasoning for taking my company down the .Net path. Dave Campbell, MCAD Thanks for the input.
Show quoteHide quote "Dave" <vbExpert4***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1147347033.833810.294120@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Stan, > > I'm a developer and I've been at my company for 6 years. I developed > well over 60 programs in VB6 and when .Net came out I debated whether > we should move. The decision was left up to me. I made the decision > to go with .Net and have spent the last two and a half years rewriting > everything in .Net so we don't have to deal with two languages. My > reasoning for doing it: > > 1. Support for VB6 in terms of service packs is going away sometime. > 2. The new IDE is so much more productive than VB.Old. > 3. I came from a C++ background so .Net is more familiar to me and > it's not as daunting to me as those that learned only VB6 or before. > 4. COM isn't going away any time soon. The framework works very well > with COM, whether it's calling COM or being called by COM. > 5. .Net is faster and more stable than VB6. > 6. I had to write some programs for handhelds using eMbedded Visual > Basic. .Net includes the Compact Framework. If you've ever had to > develop using eVB you know why this is a no-brainer. > > I don't want to start the religious war of VB6 vs. .Net but I did want > to put forth my reasoning for taking my company down the .Net path. > > Dave Campbell, MCAD > Stan,
I've been writing tons of from-scratch apps, large and small, since VS 1.0 was released. It takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. It really, really is stable and you can have confidence in it. I've NEVER had a bug that wasn't in *my* code, and believe me, I much prefer those because I can DO something about them. It's without question the most stable environment I've been involved with since I started writing software for a living in 1983. And that's saying a lot, because back in the day I was a FoxBase / FoxPro / Visual FoxPro guru and I considered THAT the benchmark for a rock-solid platform until I got involved with .NET. .NET has held together superbly for console apps, windows services, .NET remoting, winforms, and ASP.NET projects I've done. The only caveat is that my experience with the 2.0 CLR is a lot thinner, consisting so far of just a smallish Winforms app. I've heard nothing but good about the 2.0 CLR itself, but there is a little bit of grumbling about VS 2005, and I ran across a couple of annoying but surmountable problems with it in my project. Basically the IDE was released just a wee bit before it was fully baked, but arguably some of the grumbling is just because VS 2003 had us so darned spoiled ;-) At any rate I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it as a platform. In my personal view it beats a multivendor platform with fingers pointing every which direction when something doesn't work correctly. Best, --Bob Stan Canepa wrote: Show quoteHide quote > Thanks for the input. > > We are considering doing a rewrite of an app that is 7 years old, and you > are right it is just missing functionality. And the new functionality added > into the app, was forced into the structures to make it work. The app also > has several modules all basically its own application, but they all work > together. If we do the rewrite it would be to unify everything, so that they > all can share the same business rules and interface. And to create a better > database design to help make maintenance and support a lot easier. > > My biggest concern is that we are a small shop and the rewrite will take > about 2 years. I don't want to wait too long and be behind the eightball, > but I also don't want to move forward with a technology that is still > developing itself. > > I know no one can answer these questions for me, but it's still good to get > feedback from people dealing with the same issues. > > Thanks
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"Stan Canepa" <scan***@docksidesoftware.com> wrote in message I have an app in my portfolio that looks remarkably similar to what you just news:e%23IMMnHdGHA.4892@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Thanks for the input. > > We are considering doing a rewrite of an app that is 7 years old, and you > are right it is just missing functionality. And the new functionality > added > into the app, was forced into the structures to make it work. The app also > has several modules all basically its own application, but they all work > together. If we do the rewrite it would be to unify everything, so that > they > all can share the same business rules and interface. And to create a > better > database design to help make maintenance and support a lot easier. described. We are about to rewrite ours as well. It was written, originally, in SQL 6.5 and VB3, but has been maintained up to using SQL 2000 and VB6. Now, we are planning a complete rewrite to include new features, combine interfaces, clear out some old ideas from the database structure, make the data more useful for other apps to consume, and make it easier to use. Sound familiar? > The technoloty is not "still developing itself." .Net technology is fully > My biggest concern is that we are a small shop and the rewrite will take > about 2 years. I don't want to wait too long and be behind the eightball, > but I also don't want to move forward with a technology that is still > developing itself. baked. Microsoft has over 500 Million Dollars invested in applications and solutions written in .Net to run our rather complex multinational software business. That doesn't include products. That's just to run the company. In Microsoft IT, we have thousands of developers writing code in .Net. We have bet the business on this platform, literally. It works Exceptionally well. The .Net platform is fast, stable, secure, and reliable. Do not wait out of fear of the platform. You may have very good reasons to resist change, and I completely respect those reasons. However, the platform's maturity is not a valid reason to wait. As for the time and cost: www.rentacoder.com www.elance.com It is amazing how low the price can go when a shop in India is competing with a shop in Russia, and they both have good track records with smart programmers on staff. I've gotten fairly nice systems for under $5k. Even if you outsource, you will still have two years before the new app is "done." Six months to get the new app in, four months to stabilize the initial features and pass User-Acceptance-Test, and then a couple of iterations to add the features that the users want but were never able to ask for, or get, before :-). But that's just IT. -- --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. -- 
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