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But what about them hackers?Hi all,
We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter their name and password and do whatever they like. Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, Thanks, Martin Username and password in combination with forms authentication or windows
authentication should be secure enough if you use forms Authentication and use a DB as storage use parameterized query`s or SP`s to protecet against SQL injection About the employe that abuses his account ,,, it should be clear that anyone who has the keys to your house can steall everything what is inside , however if you arrive at your home and everything is gone without anny traces of burglary it would sure limit the amount of suspects . regards michel Show quoteHide quote "Martin" wrote: > Hi all, > > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite in > aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter their > name and password and do whatever they like. > > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a part > of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? > > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > > Thanks, > Martin > > > Hi Michel,
Thanks for your reply. You got a good point there. Besides we will log all usage including IP address for audit and billing purposes, so if it is an "inside job" we'd know the culprit. The thing that worries me somewhat is outsiders (hackers). I know you can scramble the password in the database, but still.... You hear of people breaking in into the CIA system, and I bet those guys know a lot more about security than I do. The system will store sensitive medical and personal info of patients as well as financial data of hospitals. I hear SP's are a good way of protecting a database, but frankly I don't understand how. A stored procedure can be called by anyone with access to the database right? And the database will still be open to regular queries, or am I seeing that wrong? Show quoteHide quote "M. Posseth" <MPoss***@discussions.microsoft.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:0A9946BE-51DF-4FA7-BE3A-1D0429470EA4@microsoft.com... > Username and password in combination with forms authentication or windows > authentication should be secure enough > > if you use forms Authentication and use a DB as storage use parameterized > query`s or SP`s to protecet against SQL injection > > About the employe that abuses his account ,,, it should be clear that > anyone > who has the keys to your house can steall everything what is inside , > however > if you arrive at your home and everything is gone without anny traces of > burglary > it would sure limit the amount of suspects . > > regards > > michel > > > > > "Martin" wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite >> in >> aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. >> >> In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and >> password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >> Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I >> guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter >> their >> name and password and do whatever they like. >> >> Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a >> part >> of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? >> >> I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, >> >> Thanks, >> Martin >> >> >>
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"Martin" <x@y.com> wrote in message Not that I am an expert... but the queries would only be runnable by your news:uqu9E8XfGHA.2188@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > Hi Michel, > > Thanks for your reply. You got a good point there. Besides we will log all > usage including IP address for audit and billing purposes, so if it is an > "inside job" we'd know the culprit. > > The thing that worries me somewhat is outsiders (hackers). I know you can > scramble the password in the database, but still.... You hear of people > breaking in into the CIA system, and I bet those guys know a lot more > about security than I do. > > The system will store sensitive medical and personal info of patients as > well as financial data of hospitals. > > I hear SP's are a good way of protecting a database, but frankly I don't > understand how. A stored procedure can be called by anyone with access to > the database right? And the database will still be open to regular > queries, or am I seeing that wrong? code (the pages run under a certain account), the SQL Server (or whatever DB Backend you use) would never be exposed to the external world... so as long as you prevent against SQL Injection you should be safe (from that aspect!) James. On Mon, 22 May 2006 15:39:13 +0800, in
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb "Martin" <x@y.com> <OMy2lMXfGHA.***@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl> wrote:Show quoteHide quote >| Hi all, You might want to re-think this process.>| >| We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite in >| aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. >| >| In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and >| password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >| Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I >| guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter their >| name and password and do whatever they like. >| >| Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a part >| of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? >| >| I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, I would be thinking - who do I want to allow on the system and what rights would I give them. What information do I know for certain and can control? The only IP addresses that you know, and can control, are the workplace ones. Thus, people who login from the workplace are given full access. Anyone logging in from outside (any other IP address) would only be given readonly/minimal update priveleges. You can have a look at Authentication and Roles as used in the web.config file. (I'm very much new to ASP.NET myself) --------------------------------------------------------------- jnort***@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply --------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your response. Of course we don't give anyone with a password access to the entire system. There are quite elaborate profiles that determine per window if a user has rights, and if so, which those rights are. This is the case in the current Windows version, and we certainly would do no less in an online version. The thing I'm worried about is how easy would it be for an experienced hacker to hijack a password/username combination and either steal information or do damage to the data. Many of our clients would have fixed IP-addresses, so they could supply a list of IP-addresses who'd have access, and we simply deny anyone who tries to log-on on behalf of this specific client from any other IP address. But some of our clients would have changing IP-addresses. In that case we cannot do this. We'd just have to believe the person who says I'm working for this hospital, this is my name and this is my password. Thanks, Martin Show quoteHide quote > You might want to re-think this process. > I would be thinking - who do I want to allow on the system and what > rights would I give them. What information do I know for certain and > can control? > > The only IP addresses that you know, and can control, are the > workplace ones. Thus, people who login from the workplace are given > full access. > > Anyone logging in from outside (any other IP address) would only be > given readonly/minimal update priveleges. > > You can have a look at Authentication and Roles as used in the > web.config file. "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb: HTTPS + username + password should be secure enough in most cases. However, > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter > their name and password and do whatever they like. do not store the passwords in plain text on the server. Instead, store a salted hash in the users table. -- M S Herfried K. Wagner M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> Hi Herfried,
Thank you for your response. I've read in the VB documentation about storing the passwords hashed. But salted? I haven't heard of that flavour. Do you have any suggestions where I can read more about https? Thanks, Martin Show quoteHide quote "Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hirf-spam-me-here@gmx.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:e6g7qFYfGHA.3364@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb: >> We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite >> in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. >> >> In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and >> password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >> Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I >> guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter >> their name and password and do whatever they like. > > HTTPS + username + password should be secure enough in most cases. > However, do not store the passwords in plain text on the server. Instead, > store a salted hash in the users table. > > -- > M S Herfried K. Wagner > M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> > V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/> "Martin" <x@y.com> wrote in message Salt is the encryption "key" used to encrypt the hash. So if you make this news:ukFrMMYfGHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > Hi Herfried, > > Thank you for your response. I've read in the VB documentation about > storing the passwords hashed. But salted? I haven't heard of that flavour. > > Do you have any suggestions where I can read more about https? > complex too, it is more secure. A different "salt" will give a different encrypted string.... the idea of salt IV is that the encryption algorythm becomes a roling code
so encrypting 2 times bla wil give two different encrypted values however to make it even more secure you could use a one way hash the values are then stored in encrypted form and there is no way to get it decrypted you authenticate with the encrypted values against the encrypted stored values in the db , this way even you do not know the password how secure can you get :-) see this nice article on devx for some more info http://www.devx.com/dbzone/Article/26726/0 regards Michel Posseth Show quoteHide quote "james" wrote: > > "Martin" <x@y.com> wrote in message > news:ukFrMMYfGHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > > Hi Herfried, > > > > Thank you for your response. I've read in the VB documentation about > > storing the passwords hashed. But salted? I haven't heard of that flavour. > > > > Do you have any suggestions where I can read more about https? > > > > Salt is the encryption "key" used to encrypt the hash. So if you make this > complex too, it is more secure. > > A different "salt" will give a different encrypted string.... > > > Martin wrote:
Show quoteHide quote >Hi all, I use a combination of username/password/machineid stored in the > >We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite in >aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > >In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and >password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I >guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter their >name and password and do whatever they like. > >Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a part >of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? > >I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > >Thanks, >Martin > > > > database. If a user tries to login from a different machine, the machineid won't match, therefore no login. The machineid I use is a combination of hard drive info and machine name. Tom Hi,
In addition to the other responses. I would authenicate the user againist the activedirectory. This way system administrator can set access levels and disable or delete users. Ken ------------------------ Show quoteHide quote "Martin" wrote: > Hi all, > > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite in > aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter their > name and password and do whatever they like. > > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a part > of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic IP-address? > > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > > Thanks, > Martin > > >
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"Martin" <x@y.com> wrote in message Ahh security, don't ya just love it! :Pnews:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Hi all, > > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter > their name and password and do whatever they like. > > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic > IP-address? > > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > > Thanks, > Martin > To prevent outside manipulation of the database and/or any other services on your server(s), try placing both the dbms machine and web server (or the server that hosts both if thats the case) behind a secured firewall. You can open up the firewall to allow communication from the outside world to your web server for web serving only. This would prevent direct manipulation of the database. Although in theory this works, it still depends on how good you write the application. If you don't use stored procedures, and you don't code defensively, you then may allow hackers to breach your database by use of sql injection attacks. Also, make sure all machines (servers) are fully patched with the latest security patches from Microsoft, this is important. If you don't, then a security hole that is discovered and fixed won't be fixed on your machine, therefore possibly allowing alternate methods of attack on your server for hackers. Although, the firewall *should* prevent such attacks anyways, you never know when dealing with security :) HTH, Mythran Thanks everybody for your helpful contributuons to this discussion.
I have a few (maybe stupid) questions... What is that SQL Injection thingy I keep hearing about, and does anyone know a site where i could learn about HTTPS? Tia, Martin Show quoteHide quote "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Hi all, > > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter > their name and password and do whatever they like. > > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic > IP-address? > > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > > Thanks, > Martin >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/09/SQLInjection/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPS Hope this helps -- Show quoteHide quoteProgramming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) "Martin" <x@y.com> schreef in bericht news:#UoJ$otfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Thanks everybody for your helpful contributuons to this discussion. > > I have a few (maybe stupid) questions... What is that SQL Injection thingy I > keep hearing about, and does anyone know a site where i could learn about > HTTPS? > > Tia, > Martin > > "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > > Hi all, > > > > We have an administrative application that we are considering to rewrite > > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > > > > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? I > > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter > > their name and password and do whatever they like. > > > > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a > > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic > > IP-address? > > > > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > > > > Thanks, > > Martin > > > > Peter,
The page you show is in my idea one of the worst pages on MSDN. It is a kind of hacker manual, while the given samples don't secure any hack. If you want to secure hacking with SQL server than you need to do that in your SQL server part where by instance not any part of the data is direct readable by somebody else than the Admin, and the Stored procedures will have the authorisations who may use those procedure by procedure. But the first part for hacking (as it is as well in this article) is that you need the userID and the passwords who gives you the right to connect to the SQL server or whatever. I probably don't have to give you than the code how to access a bad managed SQL server a SP alone does than nothing to prevent that. AFAIK had the SQL injection something to do with a bug in SQL 2000 server, where I have never read what it was. SP3 from SQL 2000 server should be to correct that bug. Just a little addition, Cor Show quoteHide quote "Peter Proost" <pproost@nospam.hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:etxV1lvfGHA.4976@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/09/SQLInjection/ > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPS > > Hope this helps > > -- > Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) > > "Martin" <x@y.com> schreef in bericht > news:#UoJ$otfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> Thanks everybody for your helpful contributuons to this discussion. >> >> I have a few (maybe stupid) questions... What is that SQL Injection >> thingy > I >> keep hearing about, and does anyone know a site where i could learn about >> HTTPS? >> >> Tia, >> Martin >> >> "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> news:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> > Hi all, >> > >> > We have an administrative application that we are considering to >> > rewrite >> > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. >> > >> > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and >> > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >> > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? > I >> > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter >> > their name and password and do whatever they like. >> > >> > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a >> > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic >> > IP-address? >> > >> > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Martin >> > >> >> > > Cor,
ACK, but it does explain what SQL injections are ;-) Greetz Peter -- Show quoteHide quoteProgramming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> schreef in bericht news:uwlaN7wfGHA.4276@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > Peter, > > The page you show is in my idea one of the worst pages on MSDN. It is a kind > of hacker manual, while the given samples don't secure any hack. > > If you want to secure hacking with SQL server than you need to do that in > your SQL server part where by instance not any part of the data is direct > readable by somebody else than the Admin, and the Stored procedures will > have the authorisations who may use those procedure by procedure. But the > first part for hacking (as it is as well in this article) is that you need > the userID and the passwords who gives you the right to connect to the SQL > server or whatever. I probably don't have to give you than the code how to > access a bad managed SQL server a SP alone does than nothing to prevent > that. > > AFAIK had the SQL injection something to do with a bug in SQL 2000 server, > where I have never read what it was. SP3 from SQL 2000 server should be to > correct that bug. > > Just a little addition, > > Cor > > "Peter Proost" <pproost@nospam.hotmail.com> schreef in bericht > news:etxV1lvfGHA.4976@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/09/SQLInjection/ > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPS > > > > Hope this helps > > > > -- > > Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) > > > > "Martin" <x@y.com> schreef in bericht > > news:#UoJ$otfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > >> Thanks everybody for your helpful contributuons to this discussion. > >> > >> I have a few (maybe stupid) questions... What is that SQL Injection > >> thingy > > I > >> keep hearing about, and does anyone know a site where i could learn about > >> HTTPS? > >> > >> Tia, > >> Martin > >> > >> "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >> news:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > We have an administrative application that we are considering to > >> > rewrite > >> > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are enourmous. > >> > > >> > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name and > >> > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / > >> > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is this? > > I > >> > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home enter > >> > their name and password and do whatever they like. > >> > > >> > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address as a > >> > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic > >> > IP-address? > >> > > >> > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Martin > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >
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"Peter Proost" <pproost@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message Which is also where I learned about it too...hmm, MSDN does provide an news:uXzIfjxfGHA.5104@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > Cor, > > ACK, but it does explain what SQL injections are ;-) > > Greetz Peter > > -- > Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) > > "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> schreef in bericht > news:uwlaN7wfGHA.4276@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> Peter, >> >> The page you show is in my idea one of the worst pages on MSDN. It is a > kind >> of hacker manual, while the given samples don't secure any hack. >> >> If you want to secure hacking with SQL server than you need to do that in >> your SQL server part where by instance not any part of the data is direct >> readable by somebody else than the Admin, and the Stored procedures will >> have the authorisations who may use those procedure by procedure. But the >> first part for hacking (as it is as well in this article) is that you > need >> the userID and the passwords who gives you the right to connect to the >> SQL >> server or whatever. I probably don't have to give you than the code how >> to >> access a bad managed SQL server a SP alone does than nothing to prevent >> that. >> >> AFAIK had the SQL injection something to do with a bug in SQL 2000 >> server, >> where I have never read what it was. SP3 from SQL 2000 server should be >> to >> correct that bug. >> >> Just a little addition, >> >> Cor >> >> "Peter Proost" <pproost@nospam.hotmail.com> schreef in bericht >> news:etxV1lvfGHA.4976@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... >> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/09/SQLInjection/ >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTPS >> > >> > Hope this helps >> > >> > -- >> > Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to >> > build >> > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to > produce >> > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. (Rich Cook) >> > >> > "Martin" <x@y.com> schreef in bericht >> > news:#UoJ$otfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... >> >> Thanks everybody for your helpful contributuons to this discussion. >> >> >> >> I have a few (maybe stupid) questions... What is that SQL Injection >> >> thingy >> > I >> >> keep hearing about, and does anyone know a site where i could learn > about >> >> HTTPS? >> >> >> >> Tia, >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> "Martin" <x@y.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> >> news:OMy2lMXfGHA.764@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > We have an administrative application that we are considering to >> >> > rewrite >> >> > in aspx with vb2005. I think the marketing possibilities are > enourmous. >> >> > >> >> > In our standard app, the user logs in by entering his/her user name > and >> >> > password. In the online version that would be Client ID / user ID / >> >> > Password. So far so good. But I'm just wondering... how secure is > this? >> > I >> >> > guess not very. Every disgruntled employee can go online at home > enter >> >> > their name and password and do whatever they like. >> >> > >> >> > Now for clients with a fixed IP address I can check the IP-address >> >> > as > a >> >> > part of the authentication. But what if my client has a dynamic >> >> > IP-address? >> >> > >> >> > I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, >> >> > >> >> > Thanks, >> >> > Martin >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > arsenal for hackers...but then again, so does any development book/manual/site. It would have been much better if it provided a detailed approach on how to avoid being hacked in such a way...in any case, Cor is right... Mythran 
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