Thats several times that it happened to me and I'm REALY getting pissed
off!. I try to add a control or do something in code and all of a sudden you
get this.


Now you can't go back to your form designer to undo what you just did,
There's nothing to do but spend useless hours in trying to clean up the
autogenerated code.
If they're pretending to automate the tasks for us, let them do it right so
that even idiots like me can't get in a situation from which there is no
exit! When I manage to make a program, thats something that even a moron
like me makes sure of. That his end users don't get in an impossible
position! I can't figure out why the hell we take this sh.... I wish there
were some serious competition to them so they'd have to get it right or pay
the price. Now they're just lauging at us all the way to the bank! I'm a
moron for putting up with it.

Regards to all of you like me :-)

Bob


[attached file: clip_image002.jpg]

and what was the problem?

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Just saw that the screen I copied did not get posted, sorry, that sort of
left you high and dry. The problem is in the IDE window for displaying the
form all of a sudden you get this big red textbox at top that says something
like the designer could not generate the form because ... then a list of
uncomprehensible bable and a bunch of errors in the command window, All of
them pointing to locations in autogenerated code. It also says you should
rebuild and that may take care of it, if that doesn't do it, there's no way
you can open the failed form in the designer again and see the form to
remove or remodify the offending control or go back to where you were before
the problem occurred. If you had the misfortune of doing a save just after
the offending modification, you're definitely screwed. If you didn't save
you might get lucky, be able to close the app without saving and you might
get back the form as it was before it got screwed up. So usually, all you
can do now is remove the bad form from your project, recreate a new one with
all the same controls giving them all the same name and property names that
were used before, then you can cut and paste your old code from the form
that turned bad. Hopefully not recreating the problem again.

This is really bad, hell its unacceptable, behaviour on the part of any
development tool, especially one with a price tage like Vs.net team
developper edition.

I can't wait for all of us to get together and find a Ralph Nader of the IT
industry that will end up forcing software manufacturers to implement some
sort of acceptance of responsibility when their products fail this badly and
force them to institute the equivalent procedure for correcting the problem
as car manufacturers are forced to do with safety defects and do it FOR FREE
for at least seven years after product purchase and maybe even remove their
ability to wash their hands of any losses to us via our acceptance of their
licensing agreements. Maybe then will they make a real effort to provide us
with the reliability that we're paying for and not getting. I'm putting a
price tage on this behaviour and the last three monts it's cost me at least
5 grand in wasted time that in good conscience I can't bill for.

I'm an old fart and getting pretty cynical sometimes, and I'm starting to
think that the product inconsistencies are planned into the marketing
strategies. It's a way to keep us captive and to sell upgrades and
maintenance contracts. If that's really the way any company sees its
fundamental relationship with its customers, it deserves a swift kick in the
pants on our behalf.

Bob


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Hi Bob ,

Been there ,,,, :-(

This is the result of  the new autogenerated code aproach , of VS

advantage  :  anyone who can drag and drop ( and do it right the first
time ) can now make a simple program

my personal opinion is that this is making projects unnecesary big   (
memory hungry and slow )

We are getting more and more in the role of  a "Designer" instead of a coder

by the way there are alternatives   ( some of them are even free like #
develop ) however they have a somewhat bigger learning curve as you really
need to code :-)


regards

Michel Posseth [MCP]






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Thanks I downloaded and installed it, it looks promising, if I can get this
project out of the door I'll definitely start testing it and familiarizing
myself with it.

Bob

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We all know what you mean - the design time experience in VS 2005 is slow and
unstable.  Many of the features are nice, but you have to remember to save
very often after the most trivial changes since you never know when VS will
hang or screw up a form (vs VS 2003, which is very stable).  Also, in a large
project, saving a file takes much longer than it should - anyone know of a
work-around for this?

Hopefully, MS clears this up in the SP.
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You know, there are other development tools out there.  You already have
choices.  But with any development tool, there is a learning curve, and
they have to be used correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I have been very aggravated by what MS does with
things, but the reality is it's their OS we are developing for. 
Fortunately, there are some other choices already.  RealBasic is one off
the top of my head.

But what we can do is promote other OS's, like Mac OS X, Linus, FreeBSD,
etc..  Then we can write programs for these environments using C++ and
Java.  RealBasic also generates code that can be compiled in all these
environments.

By the way, Java 6 has a much better runtime environment than prior
versions - it makes desktop development in Java a much better choice
than it used to be.  And Oracle has an awesome Java development environment.

So, choose.

T


Bob wrote:

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Thanks for the opinion and info. I have no problem using a tool as
documented, I can read well enough :-). Where I'm having problems is that
when you do use it as documented, it springs a trap on you from which you
can't recover. I will definitely be looking for other tools. My patience
with their bs has just run out!

Bob

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You're completely right :-( it's a pain in the ass. For this reason in many
of our companies we still use 2003 instead of 2005. It takes too much RAM
(even my dual core with 2 giga RAM takes its time), and this error is indeed
very annoying.

The alternative:
- http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

The solution I use for your problem: Save everything, close every open
form/object/... in your project, rebuild the whole solution, and than mostly
the problem is gone :-)

I have a strict policy of never buying a microsoft product until at least SP1
is released...that goes for Windows XP, Vista, VS.  Someone gave me their
original copy of VS 2003 and that's the only reason I have it now ( lucked
out on this one since it seems pretty stable even though M'soft has not
issued SP1 for it yet).  If service packs are not issued like for Office, I
wait for at least 1 year!

I find this policy avoids a lot of headaches.  I just wish M'soft wasn't so
greedy and would do thing right like VS.2003 all the time.  I really believe
it's going to be their undoing in the end.
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I had the same policy but I got suckered in this time by the one-click
deployment and the My.ressouces for easily handling localization string in
my windows apps. I always have to make localized english and french apps and
this sounded appealing. I had been using 2003 and thought that 2005 would
afford me  increase in development productivity. BIG mistake!

Bob

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Actually, VS2003 is an improvement over the original VS.net, which was
quite buggy.  It wasn't fun!  Rather than come out with a SP, they
brought out VS2003, which, in effect, is the original version with the
SP already built in.

T


Dennis wrote:

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Ah..now I see.  I thought that VB.Net 2003 was the first application that ran
well the first without Service Packs.  That helps me keep the faith that my
policy is still valid!
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Pieter,

I have often written that you are in my memory amongst the people who have
pushed the outcome of VS2005: By instance because they had built their
applications with Beta 2 and wanted to use the results of that. Those people
are for me the reason that the current version is full of small failures and
it takes now as forever in development extra time to get a good renewed
version (SP).

I find it painful to see that you are every time amongst the people who are
screaming. Screaming is easy, there has been many people been killed all
over the world because of that. Thinking what you are doing with that is
two.

Again I write that we have nothing to get a SP that sucks and that only
because people are shouting because their partial problem is not done. Those
are for me responsibility that we now have a very nice VS 2005 however full
of small failures that irritate every user, not me at least.

Most of those failures are known by Microsoft. But because of people like
you, we have the chance that we get soon a SP were still are some of those
failures in or even new ones, just because that people like you were
demanding a SP.

Just my thought,

Cor

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I did use the Beta 1 because of the serial port control in it, and I used it
very succesfully: it went really smooth, without any error :-)

I later tried Beta 2, and than mentioned many times that Microsoft should
delay te final Release: In contrast to the Beta 1 it was really buggy! So
please don't say that I wanted it to come out :-) They could have delayed it
for me :-)

And yes indeed, I do screem now because of all the errors and I do am
convinced that I can :-) Making a bad product without isn't something that I
see as normal behaviour :-) I do want to give satisfaction to my clients, so
I do expect Microsoft to have the same respect for me...

Pieter,

I had another idea why you was screaming but let that be as you told.

However, in my idea are the failures from the IDE (not its quality because
that is in my idea great) of version 2005 often told in this newsgroup and
on other places I have seen. So please give those guys at Microsoft the time
to do it well. (In my memory the version 2002 was almost in this the same as
2005 now.)

Cor


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A lot of this will be fixed in VS 2005 Service Pack 1, which will be out
this summer

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You know thats small consolation for all our wasted time and effort. I think
if they keep up this policy of what I believe is knowlingly release flawed
products they should damn well pay us for using them instead of the other
way around. I got a hefty bill ready for them..I know I can't treat my
customers that way and get away with it.

Bob


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thank the stock holders... they want money now not later...

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