"BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
> get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
> is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
> some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
> than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
> antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
> any suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Background:
> Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
> Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
> DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
> Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
> Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
>
> Thanks,
>

"Stephany Young" wrote:

> Well ... This one has all the hallmarks of 'how long is a piece of string?'.
>
> Your use of the word 'inherited' indicates to me that you did not recruit
> him yourself. How he came to be working for your company is a major factor
> in how you approach the exercise.  Was he, for instance, in some other
> position where he used 'MS Access' etc. and now is being moved into a more
> 'mainstream' area of the company, or perhaps recruited by someone else in
> the company as a personal favour or similar reason. Maybe he, himself
> 'asked' to moved from weher he was to 'mainstream' area of the company. In
> addition, is this person 'new' to you personally or have you known him for
> some time. This sort of information is important to you so that you can
> gauge his ability to learn, his level of self-motivation and perhaps his
> abilities in analysing and solving 'problems', which, after all, programming
> is all about.
>
> Realisticly, you have to gaugue his skill levels in various areas and the
> best way is to start at the beginning. That is to start him off on 'ye olde
> standard' Hello World! console application. This should have the intention
> of introducing him to the VS IDE, the VB.NET compiler and the VS Debugger.
> It important that he understand what is actually happening when the app hits
> the 'Sub Main()' because, in Access, the need to worry about that level of
> functionality was hidden from the user.
>
> As you are satisfied that he has mastered each step, increase the complexity
> of the exercises at the rate you gauge to be appropriate. Some people learn
> faster than others and some are able to grasp very complex concepts very
> quickly indeed.
>
> Reinforce the need to have Option Explicit and Option Strict turned on in
> ALL projects, again making sure that he understands why.
>
> Reinforce the need, and of course, the reasons, to follow the company
> standards for naming conventions and coding styles at all times. Make sure
> that he is given a copy of the company standards manual as early as
> possible.
>
> In parallel with this, introduce him to existing projects. For example, take
> a small app and get him to dissect the code to understand what the app is
> doing. It is not good enough for him to tell you he understands it, he must
> be able to demonstrate that he understands it. I get people to write a
> report (in prose) of their analysis of the application, which also provides
> me with a way of gauging their written communication skill level. Make sure
> you review the report with the person, reinforcing where they have 'got it
> right' and correcting where they haven't.
>
> Once you can gauge that their proficiency levels are at a certain stage you
> can send them out 'to play' on their own, but still reviewing what they are
> doing. As their skill levels increase you will be able to reduce the amount
> of reviewing that you need to do. When he makes a 'mistake' make sure you
> don't browbeat him with it, rather, uUse it as an opportunity for analysis
> and learning.
>
> At all steps along the way, you, of course, need to make sure that you are
> pointing them toward the appropriate references that will provide more
> technical explanations on various concepts.
>
> If the person concerned is a 'quick study' and is self-motivated this
> process may be as short as a few weeks. For others it may extend into
> months.
>
> Unfortunately there is no 'magic bullet' formula that dictates how long such
> a process will take just as there is no 'magic bullet' formula that tells
> you how you must go about it.
>
> I have a slogan (which is never erased) written in big letters across the
> top of my whiteboard. It reads "THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING!'.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
> > get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
> > is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
> > some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
> > than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
> > antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
> > any suggestions are appreciated.
> >
> > Background:
> > Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
> > Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
> > DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
> > Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
> > Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
>
>
>

"Dennis" <Den***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:96D1F694-2530-4C63-BD7F-E236C317AD8E@microsoft.com...
> Simple...assign him something simple to do in VB.Net and see what he
> does...if he can't figure out how to learn what he needs to know to get it
> done then fire him...if he does then give him something more complicated.
> --
> Dennis in Houston
>
>
> "Stephany Young" wrote:
>
>> Well ... This one has all the hallmarks of 'how long is a piece of
>> string?'.
>>
>> Your use of the word 'inherited' indicates to me that you did not recruit
>> him yourself. How he came to be working for your company is a major
>> factor
>> in how you approach the exercise.  Was he, for instance, in some other
>> position where he used 'MS Access' etc. and now is being moved into a
>> more
>> 'mainstream' area of the company, or perhaps recruited by someone else in
>> the company as a personal favour or similar reason. Maybe he, himself
>> 'asked' to moved from weher he was to 'mainstream' area of the company.
>> In
>> addition, is this person 'new' to you personally or have you known him
>> for
>> some time. This sort of information is important to you so that you can
>> gauge his ability to learn, his level of self-motivation and perhaps his
>> abilities in analysing and solving 'problems', which, after all,
>> programming
>> is all about.
>>
>> Realisticly, you have to gaugue his skill levels in various areas and the
>> best way is to start at the beginning. That is to start him off on 'ye
>> olde
>> standard' Hello World! console application. This should have the
>> intention
>> of introducing him to the VS IDE, the VB.NET compiler and the VS
>> Debugger.
>> It important that he understand what is actually happening when the app
>> hits
>> the 'Sub Main()' because, in Access, the need to worry about that level
>> of
>> functionality was hidden from the user.
>>
>> As you are satisfied that he has mastered each step, increase the
>> complexity
>> of the exercises at the rate you gauge to be appropriate. Some people
>> learn
>> faster than others and some are able to grasp very complex concepts very
>> quickly indeed.
>>
>> Reinforce the need to have Option Explicit and Option Strict turned on in
>> ALL projects, again making sure that he understands why.
>>
>> Reinforce the need, and of course, the reasons, to follow the company
>> standards for naming conventions and coding styles at all times. Make
>> sure
>> that he is given a copy of the company standards manual as early as
>> possible.
>>
>> In parallel with this, introduce him to existing projects. For example,
>> take
>> a small app and get him to dissect the code to understand what the app is
>> doing. It is not good enough for him to tell you he understands it, he
>> must
>> be able to demonstrate that he understands it. I get people to write a
>> report (in prose) of their analysis of the application, which also
>> provides
>> me with a way of gauging their written communication skill level. Make
>> sure
>> you review the report with the person, reinforcing where they have 'got
>> it
>> right' and correcting where they haven't.
>>
>> Once you can gauge that their proficiency levels are at a certain stage
>> you
>> can send them out 'to play' on their own, but still reviewing what they
>> are
>> doing. As their skill levels increase you will be able to reduce the
>> amount
>> of reviewing that you need to do. When he makes a 'mistake' make sure you
>> don't browbeat him with it, rather, uUse it as an opportunity for
>> analysis
>> and learning.
>>
>> At all steps along the way, you, of course, need to make sure that you
>> are
>> pointing them toward the appropriate references that will provide more
>> technical explanations on various concepts.
>>
>> If the person concerned is a 'quick study' and is self-motivated this
>> process may be as short as a few weeks. For others it may extend into
>> months.
>>
>> Unfortunately there is no 'magic bullet' formula that dictates how long
>> such
>> a process will take just as there is no 'magic bullet' formula that tells
>> you how you must go about it.
>>
>> I have a slogan (which is never erased) written in big letters across the
>> top of my whiteboard. It reads "THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING!'.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>>
>> "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> > Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
>> > get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
>> > is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
>> > some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
>> > than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
>> > antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
>> > any suggestions are appreciated.
>> >
>> > Background:
>> > Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
>> > Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
>> > DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
>> > Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
>> > Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>>
>>
>>

"Tom Leylan" wrote:

> In the interest of communication (not argument) I'd like to say it was a
> treat to read Stephany's well-reasoned reply.  And to Dennis, I can
> appreciate the fact you run your company that way (how many employees do you
> have BTW) but good/smart companies don't.  If he was an "employee" it means
> he has knowledge of the business and one would prefer not to throw that
> away.  Besides what is "easy" and what is "complicated" and why must
> everybody perform complicated tasks?  Are there no routine tasks to perform?
>
> To the original poster... I'd recommend you consider Stephany's response.
> What I would add is a question "get up to speed with what?"  Are you hoping
> the new guy can design new input forms, write new reports, review all the
> SQL stored procedures and travel to the Denver office to do training?
> Perhaps there is some task that match his current skills.  If his Access DB
> experience makes it difficult for him to grasp the 4-tier design of your
> system right now it would be best not to give him the responsibility to fix
> something in that area.  Generally speaking people have particular skills
> and if you determine what his are he can be of benefit to you immediately.
> He might (for instance) be better at designing reports than the people you
> currently have doing it.  Maybe he is good at finding tricky bugs that have
> eluded the rest of the team or that they simply don't have time to look
> into.
>
> He is going to need a "tour" of your app and .Net given by somebody who
> understands both.  If that person also knows something about Access he/she
> could even contrast the two languages.  All things considered it may not be
> ..Net command set that gives him the most problem, I know people quite versed
> in a language who couldn't make heads or tails of an application written in
> that language.  An orientation to what was done and why helps alot.
>
> Tom
>
>
> "Dennis" <Den***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:96D1F694-2530-4C63-BD7F-E236C317AD8E@microsoft.com...
> > Simple...assign him something simple to do in VB.Net and see what he
> > does...if he can't figure out how to learn what he needs to know to get it
> > done then fire him...if he does then give him something more complicated.
> > --
> > Dennis in Houston
> >
> >
> > "Stephany Young" wrote:
> >
> >> Well ... This one has all the hallmarks of 'how long is a piece of
> >> string?'.
> >>
> >> Your use of the word 'inherited' indicates to me that you did not recruit
> >> him yourself. How he came to be working for your company is a major
> >> factor
> >> in how you approach the exercise.  Was he, for instance, in some other
> >> position where he used 'MS Access' etc. and now is being moved into a
> >> more
> >> 'mainstream' area of the company, or perhaps recruited by someone else in
> >> the company as a personal favour or similar reason. Maybe he, himself
> >> 'asked' to moved from weher he was to 'mainstream' area of the company.
> >> In
> >> addition, is this person 'new' to you personally or have you known him
> >> for
> >> some time. This sort of information is important to you so that you can
> >> gauge his ability to learn, his level of self-motivation and perhaps his
> >> abilities in analysing and solving 'problems', which, after all,
> >> programming
> >> is all about.
> >>
> >> Realisticly, you have to gaugue his skill levels in various areas and the
> >> best way is to start at the beginning. That is to start him off on 'ye
> >> olde
> >> standard' Hello World! console application. This should have the
> >> intention
> >> of introducing him to the VS IDE, the VB.NET compiler and the VS
> >> Debugger.
> >> It important that he understand what is actually happening when the app
> >> hits
> >> the 'Sub Main()' because, in Access, the need to worry about that level
> >> of
> >> functionality was hidden from the user.
> >>
> >> As you are satisfied that he has mastered each step, increase the
> >> complexity
> >> of the exercises at the rate you gauge to be appropriate. Some people
> >> learn
> >> faster than others and some are able to grasp very complex concepts very
> >> quickly indeed.
> >>
> >> Reinforce the need to have Option Explicit and Option Strict turned on in
> >> ALL projects, again making sure that he understands why.
> >>
> >> Reinforce the need, and of course, the reasons, to follow the company
> >> standards for naming conventions and coding styles at all times. Make
> >> sure
> >> that he is given a copy of the company standards manual as early as
> >> possible.
> >>
> >> In parallel with this, introduce him to existing projects. For example,
> >> take
> >> a small app and get him to dissect the code to understand what the app is
> >> doing. It is not good enough for him to tell you he understands it, he
> >> must
> >> be able to demonstrate that he understands it. I get people to write a
> >> report (in prose) of their analysis of the application, which also
> >> provides
> >> me with a way of gauging their written communication skill level. Make
> >> sure
> >> you review the report with the person, reinforcing where they have 'got
> >> it
> >> right' and correcting where they haven't.
> >>
> >> Once you can gauge that their proficiency levels are at a certain stage
> >> you
> >> can send them out 'to play' on their own, but still reviewing what they
> >> are
> >> doing. As their skill levels increase you will be able to reduce the
> >> amount
> >> of reviewing that you need to do. When he makes a 'mistake' make sure you
> >> don't browbeat him with it, rather, uUse it as an opportunity for
> >> analysis
> >> and learning.
> >>
> >> At all steps along the way, you, of course, need to make sure that you
> >> are
> >> pointing them toward the appropriate references that will provide more
> >> technical explanations on various concepts.
> >>
> >> If the person concerned is a 'quick study' and is self-motivated this
> >> process may be as short as a few weeks. For others it may extend into
> >> months.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately there is no 'magic bullet' formula that dictates how long
> >> such
> >> a process will take just as there is no 'magic bullet' formula that tells
> >> you how you must go about it.
> >>
> >> I have a slogan (which is never erased) written in big letters across the
> >> top of my whiteboard. It reads "THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING!'.
> >>
> >> Good luck.
> >>
> >>
> >> "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
> >> > get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
> >> > is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
> >> > some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
> >> > than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
> >> > antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
> >> > any suggestions are appreciated.
> >> >
> >> > Background:
> >> > Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
> >> > Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
> >> > DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
> >> > Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
> >> > Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

"Dennis" <Den***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B2D49C79-AEF8-4E49-BED1-E3BA4B1133CC@microsoft.com...
> By fire him, I meant send him back to what he was doing before.  Giving
> him a
> problem to solve on his own tests both his learning skills and iniative.
> By
> the way, I manage a worldwide organization with operations in many
> countries
> with several sub-managers and Engineers working with me and we just can't
> have people on our staff who can't handle their own learning path.
> Neither
> can any successful organization.
> --
> Dennis in Houston
>
>
> "Tom Leylan" wrote:
>
>> In the interest of communication (not argument) I'd like to say it was a
>> treat to read Stephany's well-reasoned reply.  And to Dennis, I can
>> appreciate the fact you run your company that way (how many employees do
>> you
>> have BTW) but good/smart companies don't.  If he was an "employee" it
>> means
>> he has knowledge of the business and one would prefer not to throw that
>> away.  Besides what is "easy" and what is "complicated" and why must
>> everybody perform complicated tasks?  Are there no routine tasks to
>> perform?
>>
>> To the original poster... I'd recommend you consider Stephany's response.
>> What I would add is a question "get up to speed with what?"  Are you
>> hoping
>> the new guy can design new input forms, write new reports, review all the
>> SQL stored procedures and travel to the Denver office to do training?
>> Perhaps there is some task that match his current skills.  If his Access
>> DB
>> experience makes it difficult for him to grasp the 4-tier design of your
>> system right now it would be best not to give him the responsibility to
>> fix
>> something in that area.  Generally speaking people have particular skills
>> and if you determine what his are he can be of benefit to you
>> immediately.
>> He might (for instance) be better at designing reports than the people
>> you
>> currently have doing it.  Maybe he is good at finding tricky bugs that
>> have
>> eluded the rest of the team or that they simply don't have time to look
>> into.
>>
>> He is going to need a "tour" of your app and .Net given by somebody who
>> understands both.  If that person also knows something about Access
>> he/she
>> could even contrast the two languages.  All things considered it may not
>> be
>> ..Net command set that gives him the most problem, I know people quite
>> versed
>> in a language who couldn't make heads or tails of an application written
>> in
>> that language.  An orientation to what was done and why helps alot.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> "Dennis" <Den***@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:96D1F694-2530-4C63-BD7F-E236C317AD8E@microsoft.com...
>> > Simple...assign him something simple to do in VB.Net and see what he
>> > does...if he can't figure out how to learn what he needs to know to get
>> > it
>> > done then fire him...if he does then give him something more
>> > complicated.
>> > --
>> > Dennis in Houston
>> >
>> >
>> > "Stephany Young" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well ... This one has all the hallmarks of 'how long is a piece of
>> >> string?'.
>> >>
>> >> Your use of the word 'inherited' indicates to me that you did not
>> >> recruit
>> >> him yourself. How he came to be working for your company is a major
>> >> factor
>> >> in how you approach the exercise.  Was he, for instance, in some other
>> >> position where he used 'MS Access' etc. and now is being moved into a
>> >> more
>> >> 'mainstream' area of the company, or perhaps recruited by someone else
>> >> in
>> >> the company as a personal favour or similar reason. Maybe he, himself
>> >> 'asked' to moved from weher he was to 'mainstream' area of the
>> >> company.
>> >> In
>> >> addition, is this person 'new' to you personally or have you known him
>> >> for
>> >> some time. This sort of information is important to you so that you
>> >> can
>> >> gauge his ability to learn, his level of self-motivation and perhaps
>> >> his
>> >> abilities in analysing and solving 'problems', which, after all,
>> >> programming
>> >> is all about.
>> >>
>> >> Realisticly, you have to gaugue his skill levels in various areas and
>> >> the
>> >> best way is to start at the beginning. That is to start him off on 'ye
>> >> olde
>> >> standard' Hello World! console application. This should have the
>> >> intention
>> >> of introducing him to the VS IDE, the VB.NET compiler and the VS
>> >> Debugger.
>> >> It important that he understand what is actually happening when the
>> >> app
>> >> hits
>> >> the 'Sub Main()' because, in Access, the need to worry about that
>> >> level
>> >> of
>> >> functionality was hidden from the user.
>> >>
>> >> As you are satisfied that he has mastered each step, increase the
>> >> complexity
>> >> of the exercises at the rate you gauge to be appropriate. Some people
>> >> learn
>> >> faster than others and some are able to grasp very complex concepts
>> >> very
>> >> quickly indeed.
>> >>
>> >> Reinforce the need to have Option Explicit and Option Strict turned on
>> >> in
>> >> ALL projects, again making sure that he understands why.
>> >>
>> >> Reinforce the need, and of course, the reasons, to follow the company
>> >> standards for naming conventions and coding styles at all times. Make
>> >> sure
>> >> that he is given a copy of the company standards manual as early as
>> >> possible.
>> >>
>> >> In parallel with this, introduce him to existing projects. For
>> >> example,
>> >> take
>> >> a small app and get him to dissect the code to understand what the app
>> >> is
>> >> doing. It is not good enough for him to tell you he understands it, he
>> >> must
>> >> be able to demonstrate that he understands it. I get people to write a
>> >> report (in prose) of their analysis of the application, which also
>> >> provides
>> >> me with a way of gauging their written communication skill level. Make
>> >> sure
>> >> you review the report with the person, reinforcing where they have
>> >> 'got
>> >> it
>> >> right' and correcting where they haven't.
>> >>
>> >> Once you can gauge that their proficiency levels are at a certain
>> >> stage
>> >> you
>> >> can send them out 'to play' on their own, but still reviewing what
>> >> they
>> >> are
>> >> doing. As their skill levels increase you will be able to reduce the
>> >> amount
>> >> of reviewing that you need to do. When he makes a 'mistake' make sure
>> >> you
>> >> don't browbeat him with it, rather, uUse it as an opportunity for
>> >> analysis
>> >> and learning.
>> >>
>> >> At all steps along the way, you, of course, need to make sure that you
>> >> are
>> >> pointing them toward the appropriate references that will provide more
>> >> technical explanations on various concepts.
>> >>
>> >> If the person concerned is a 'quick study' and is self-motivated this
>> >> process may be as short as a few weeks. For others it may extend into
>> >> months.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately there is no 'magic bullet' formula that dictates how
>> >> long
>> >> such
>> >> a process will take just as there is no 'magic bullet' formula that
>> >> tells
>> >> you how you must go about it.
>> >>
>> >> I have a slogan (which is never erased) written in big letters across
>> >> the
>> >> top of my whiteboard. It reads "THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TRAINING!'.
>> >>
>> >> Good luck.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> >> > Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
>> >> > get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill
>> >> > set
>> >> > is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We
>> >> > employ
>> >> > some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.
>> >> > Other
>> >> > than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is
>> >> > pretty
>> >> > antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible
>> >> > so
>> >> > any suggestions are appreciated.
>> >> >
>> >> > Background:
>> >> > Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
>> >> > Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
>> >> > DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
>> >> > Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
>> >> > Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

"BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
> get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
> is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
> some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
> than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
> antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
> any suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Background:
> Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
> Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
> DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
> Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
> Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
>
> Thanks,
>

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%23CeP$ZQFHHA.5004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> BK,
>
> I completely disagree with the replies from Stephany and Tom,  why are
> things as 4 tier so important, is that the first goal of an organisation.
> For me that sounds beginners wisdom, use the skills of the Access, ASP
> programmer to start with. Those are most probably fine form and output
> design coupled with skills how to present a program to an end user. For me
> those parts are thousand times more important than if something is so
> called 4 tier (which I doubt it is because this is mostly nothing more
> than multilayer).
>
> Therefore the tone setting of some messages sounds for me derogating too
> Access/ASP developers. There is not any need for that. Often they are much
> better than dotNet developers in creating what is needed, the latter
> sometimes don't come any further than the design instead of bringing the
> programs (at the right time) to the end-user.
>
> Just my thought reading the message and some replies.
>
> And let him try this
>
> http://www.vb-tips.com/dbpages.aspx?ID=1139f14a-c236-4ad7-8882-b1ed16424252
>
> Cor
>
> "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
>> get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
>> is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
>> some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
>> than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
>> antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
>> any suggestions are appreciated.
>>
>> Background:
>> Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
>> Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
>> DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
>> Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
>> Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>
>

"Tom Leylan" wrote:

> Interesting Cor.
>
> If they have a multi-tier business app written in VB.Net and C# and a junior
> programmer who knows Access then that's what they have.  Nobody was putting
> the programmer down for using Access but extensive knowledge of Access isn't
> going to translate into "I'll implement an Interface in my new business
> class."  You can see the level of some of the questions posted on this
> newsgroup and this is from people who actually use VB.Net.  If knowing
> Access is the route to good .Net code we could start recommending a side
> trip.
>
> They aren't developing in Access if they were I'd suggest the Access guy
> orient the .Net folks instead.
>
> Stephany suggested he be taught .Net, I suggested they use the skills he has
> gained in Access in developing .Net... I don't think you completely disagree
> :-)
>
> Take care.
>
>
> "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote in message
> news:%23CeP$ZQFHHA.5004@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> > BK,
> >
> > I completely disagree with the replies from Stephany and Tom,  why are
> > things as 4 tier so important, is that the first goal of an organisation.
> > For me that sounds beginners wisdom, use the skills of the Access, ASP
> > programmer to start with. Those are most probably fine form and output
> > design coupled with skills how to present a program to an end user. For me
> > those parts are thousand times more important than if something is so
> > called 4 tier (which I doubt it is because this is mostly nothing more
> > than multilayer).
> >
> > Therefore the tone setting of some messages sounds for me derogating too
> > Access/ASP developers. There is not any need for that. Often they are much
> > better than dotNet developers in creating what is needed, the latter
> > sometimes don't come any further than the design instead of bringing the
> > programs (at the right time) to the end-user.
> >
> > Just my thought reading the message and some replies.
> >
> > And let him try this
> >
> > http://www.vb-tips.com/dbpages.aspx?ID=1139f14a-c236-4ad7-8882-b1ed16424252
> >
> > Cor
> >
> > "BK" <bkunn***@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> > news:1164924821.535097.218200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >> Our .Net team has just inherited a junior programmer that we need to
> >> get up to speed as quickly as possible.  Unfortunately, his skill set
> >> is largely Access with some VB6 and ASP classic experience.  We employ
> >> some parts of XP such as pair programming, and this should help.  Other
> >> than books, does anyone have any suggestions?  His skill set is pretty
> >> antiquated and we need to get him up to speed as quickly as possible so
> >> any suggestions are appreciated.
> >>
> >> Background:
> >> Mixture of Vb.Net and C#.Net code
> >> Mixture of Oracle, DB2, and SQL server backends (we have our own
> >> DataAccess class similar to the MS Enterprise Library Data Access)
> >> Mostly Windows Forms for front ends
> >> Mostly 4 tier design due to the complexity of our needs.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

"BK" wrote:

> First off, thanks for all the input... I won't address all the points
> and questions, but here is some feedback from me (the original poster).
>
> The programmer I "inherited" is the last of the VB6 programmers here.
> The reason he was a hold out is because he is more old school and
> reluctant to change.  I actually did want him on the team, it was a way
> to further show management how good the move was to .Net (if we can
> make him more productive, we can make anyone more productive!)  The
> rest of us embraced the .Net environment and jumped in feet first over
> a year ago.  The rest of the team is very productive now, much more so
> than when they coded in VB6 (I actually programmed in VFP prior to this
> and came into the .Net team as a team lead).  We had a few hurdles to
> cross initially, but they were mostly related to team development
> instead of individual development.  We now attack all projects as a
> team, divide and conquer.  Using OOP principles, eXtreme Programming
> techniques, and the .Net framework, we are all doing our job different,
> but much more efficiently with fewer bugs and faster turn around.  The
> customers are happy, management is happy, my job is fun.
>
> The reason for the post is that this programmer has been a challenge,
> he wants to revert back to "old ways".  FWIW, he is the oldest member
> of the team.  You can tell he wants to change and he doesn't resist
> change, but his programming style is very procedural and he has a hard
> time thinking of the Enterprise (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server).
>
> Things are getting slowly better.  We do a lot of paired programming
> and that has been helpful.  We also do a lot of code review, so he
> see's other peoples work.  Another thing I've found useful is to give
> him shorter deadlines... if he has too long to work on something he
> tends to bog himself down in minor details that don't enhance the
> system or the user experience.
>
> Once again, I do appreciate the replys and I will share my progress in
> the hopes that others may benefit.
>
>