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Microsoft Responds to the Evolution of Online CommunitiesDate 5/4/2010
Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space. We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. We are working diligently on providing additional resources and information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in additional languages in the next few days. Am 04.05.2010 21:34, schrieb n***@microsoft.com:
> Date 5/4/2010 What is the word "Verschlimmbesserung" in your language? Don't know how to translate.> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. > > Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space. > > We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. > > We are working diligently on providing additional resources and information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in additional languages in the next few days. Anyways guys, GLHF on your own way! We'll see which one will be the lonesome one. Thank you, and good night! Armin PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? On 5/4/2010 10:44 PM, Armin Zingler wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > Am 04.05.2010 21:34, schrieb n***@microsoft.com: I think the translation is "Make worse". My last German class was >> Date 5/4/2010 >> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. >> >> Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space. >> >> We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. >> >> We are working diligently on providing additional resources and information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in additional languages in the next few days. > > What is the word "Verschlimmbesserung" in your language? Don't know how to translate. > Anyways guys, GLHF on your own way! We'll see which one will be the lonesome one. > > Thank you, and good night! > > > Armin > PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? "Zwanzig Jarhen" ago though... It might be time to log into StackOverflow.com... -- Mike Am 05.05.2010 04:55, schrieb Family Tree Mike:
>> What is the word "Verschlimmbesserung" in your language? Don't know how to translate. Hi Mike,> I think the translation is "Make worse". My last German class was > "Zwanzig Jarhen" ago though... yeah, "make worse while trying to make it better" hey world out there: If it's fine, keep it. Don't make "improvements" like the different approaches of online help, I mean F1-help. Every version got slower and worse to handle - the current version is ridiculous. Sorry guys. Anyhow your company is getting outta control. Believe me. -- Armin On 2010-05-05, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > Am 04.05.2010 21:34, schrieb n***@microsoft.com: While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It>> Date 5/4/2010 >> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. >> >> Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by facilitating discussions in a clean space. >> >> We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. >> >> We are working diligently on providing additional resources and information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in additional languages in the next few days. > > What is the word "Verschlimmbesserung" in your language? Don't know how to translate. > Anyways guys, GLHF on your own way! We'll see which one will be the lonesome one. > > Thank you, and good night! > will be sorely missed. > Gentoo is my personal favorite. Though, I've started using Debian on one of> Armin > PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? my servers and I have an Android development vm setup using Ubuntu.... -- Tom Shelton Tom,
In fact I miss in the forums only the possibility to view in a quick way who has responded. There is not a treeview like in a newsgroup. I assume they did their best to make it the same, but have never looked to an Outlook equivalent newsreader (I assume that you as forum participator understands what I want to say). It makes that most forums threads become quick like thrash. In my idea would the contributors in this forums (Especially Armin which is probably with you one of the long-time ones) should once try the English Visual Basic Forum general. Also to my surprise I recognised more than a year ago it is less bad as it has been in past, and some features are really better than in the newsgroups. There are some contributors in the forums which are equal to the contributors in this newsgroup, although it is in my idea not in a way like this newsgroup was in past, when it was still easy to visit. Cor Show quoteHide quote "Tom Shelton" <tom_shel***@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote in message news:uwziqCA7KHA.5848@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > On 2010-05-05, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote: >> Am 04.05.2010 21:34, schrieb n***@microsoft.com: >>> Date 5/4/2010 >>> Starting in early summer 2010, Microsoft will begin progressively >>> closing down the Microsoft public newsgroups to enrich conversations in >>> the rapidly-growing forum platform. This decision is in response to >>> worldwide market trends and evolving customer needs. >>> >>> Microsoft continues to invest in forums to reduce customer effort, >>> consolidate community venues and make it easier for active contributors >>> to retain their influence. Forums provide a healthy community >>> environment with less spam and make answers easier to find by customers >>> and search engines. Additionally, forums offer a better user and >>> off-topic management platform that will improve customer satisfaction by >>> facilitating discussions in a clean space. >>> >>> We understand that some newsgroups are still active, and important to >>> the community. In the coming days and weeks, we will be rolling out >>> tools and resources to minimize disruption to the community discussions. >>> >>> We are working diligently on providing additional resources and >>> information in local languages later this week. In the meantime, please >>> refer to the official Microsoft Newsgroup website >>> http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/default.mspx concerning >>> this issue. The Microsoft Newsgroup website will be made available in >>> additional languages in the next few days. >> >> What is the word "Verschlimmbesserung" in your language? Don't know how >> to translate. >> Anyways guys, GLHF on your own way! We'll see which one will be the >> lonesome one. >> >> Thank you, and good night! >> > > While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It > will be sorely missed. > >> >> Armin >> PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? > > Gentoo is my personal favorite. Though, I've started using Debian on one > of > my servers and I have an Android development vm setup using Ubuntu.... > > -- > Tom Shelton Am 05.05.2010 13:07, schrieb Cor Ligthert[MVP]:
> In fact I miss in the forums only the possibility to view in a quick way I miss the /speed/ known from the newsgroups. In the newsgroups, I can > who has responded. There is not a treeview like in a newsgroup. I assume > they did their best to make it the same, but have never looked to an > Outlook equivalent newsreader (I assume that you as forum participator > understands what I want to say). It makes that most forums threads > become quick like thrash. click on a message and it gets displayed instantly. That's not the case in the forums, where I have to wait until the whole layout crap is loaded. Well, I miss the treeview too. -- M S Herfried K. Wagner M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/> Am 05.05.2010 05:11, schrieb Tom Shelton:
>> Thank you, and good night! The announcement was one of those moments: What? Did I ask for that? I don't>> > > While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It > will be sorely missed. need a change. Everything's fine. I can add attachments to every posting if you want it. And I will switch to HTML and insert pictures if you think nntp is bad. It's slim, fast and it fulfils all my needs. I don't want to wait for slow servers producing http overhead and colored pictures. Let me start yawning in advance right now... >> Armin Thx! :-)>> PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? > > Gentoo is my personal favorite. Though, I've started using Debian on one of > my servers and I have an Android development vm setup using Ubuntu.... Well,,, I was pretty...pissed yesterday?! (OMG 8-o ) Put in more diplomatic words: I'm not a militant MSFT basher but there are several developments that makes me more and more not being one of these magic customers that MSFT pretends to work for. I also didn't ask them to remove the MDI interface in VS 2010. Suddenly gone. Oops, one customer lost. And BTW, I don't like Win7. But who am I? Just not one of the "community" anymore - as it seems. OT, sorry sorry... (Would this posting be deleted by a private-forum moderator?) -- Armin "Armin Zingler"
>> While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. Which images, it is much easier to attach images in this message than in a >> It >> will be sorely missed. > > The announcement was one of those moments: What? Did I ask for that? I > don't > need a change. Everything's fine. I can add attachments to every posting > if you want it. And I will switch to HTML and insert pictures if you think > nntp is bad. It's slim, fast and it fulfils all my needs. I don't want to > wait for slow servers producing http overhead and colored pictures. Let > me start yawning in advance right now... > forum. But I never do (did) that so I don't miss it. In past there was always someone who complained about speed, so I don't do that. > I just tried a MDI and it is still there, I've seen no changed until now > Well,,, I was pretty...pissed yesterday?! (OMG 8-o ) Put in more > diplomatic > words: I'm not a militant MSFT basher but there are several developments > that makes me more and more not being one of these magic customers that > MSFT pretends to work for. I also didn't ask them to remove the MDI > interface > in VS 2010. Suddenly gone. Oops, one customer lost. And BTW, I don't like > Win7. beside the ones you've showed. > No for sure not.> But who am I? Just not one of the "community" anymore - as it seems. > > > (Would this posting be deleted by a private-forum moderator?) > (I'm not a forum moderator probably like you I don't want to be that (Ken Tucker is) but what I've seen in the weekend in the VB Express forum I've never seen in a Microsoft Newsgroup, and it is not deleted, only replaced and locked for more answers) But you could expect what happens now, last years it was almost impossible to reach these newsgroups (I'm not saying that was not by accident, but the time before we saw actions took always extremely long). It seem now already a while again solved. Am 05.05.2010 15:32, schrieb Cor Ligthert[MVP]:
> ACK> [...] > I just tried a MDI and it is still there, I've seen no changed until now You mean creating an MDI form? I mean menu Tools -> Options: Environment -> window layout: MDI.> beside the ones you've showed. -- Armin Armin,
I did not even know it did exist, seems I've long time missed something. So I was not aware they removed it. Maybe that was the reason I had always trouble with the menus with MDI. Also nobody seen writing about this who was using betas Cor Show quoteHide quote "Armin Zingler" <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote in message news:edeSbzG7KHA.3184@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Am 05.05.2010 15:32, schrieb Cor Ligthert[MVP]: >> >> [...] > > ACK > >> I just tried a MDI and it is still there, I've seen no changed until now >> beside the ones you've showed. > > You mean creating an MDI form? I mean menu Tools -> Options: > Environment -> window layout: MDI. > > -- > Armin > On 2010-05-05, Cor Ligthert[MVP] <Notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote:
> Armin, Cor - Like you, I'm not sure many people actually realized that you could opt> > I did not even know it did exist, seems I've long time missed something. > > So I was not aware they removed it. > Maybe that was the reason I had always trouble with the menus with MDI. > > Also nobody seen writing about this who was using betas > for a mdi style interface in VS rather then the tabbed interface - which is probably why there has been little to no discussion around it's removal. I am actually not suprised it's gone though - VS2010 uses wpf for the interface rendering. Currently, wpf does not support MDI interfaces. -- Tom Shelton On 2010-05-05, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > Am 05.05.2010 05:11, schrieb Tom Shelton: I agree for the most part. I am not a huge fan of web forums. I do>>> Thank you, and good night! >>> >> >> While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It >> will be sorely missed. > > The announcement was one of those moments: What? Did I ask for that? I don't > need a change. Everything's fine. I can add attachments to every posting > if you want it. And I will switch to HTML and insert pictures if you think > nntp is bad. It's slim, fast and it fulfils all my needs. I don't want to > wait for slow servers producing http overhead and colored pictures. Let > me start yawning in advance right now... > participate on the MS forums occasionally. But, I vastly prefer to use the simple text interface of nntp. Show quoteHide quote >>> Armin I'm not a user of the MDI interface, so I didn't notice it being gone from>>> PS: Which linux distribution can you recommend? >> >> Gentoo is my personal favorite. Though, I've started using Debian on one of >> my servers and I have an Android development vm setup using Ubuntu.... > > Thx! :-) > > Well,,, I was pretty...pissed yesterday?! (OMG 8-o ) Put in more diplomatic > words: I'm not a militant MSFT basher but there are several developments > that makes me more and more not being one of these magic customers that > MSFT pretends to work for. I also didn't ask them to remove the MDI interface > in VS 2010. Suddenly gone. Oops, one customer lost. And BTW, I don't like > Win7. > 2010. But, that makes sense. WPF doesn't support MDI - and VS2010's interface is written using WPF. It is always frustrating to loose functionality :( I can't agree on win7 though. I've been using it for sometime - and I like it a lot :) > But who am I? Just not one of the "community" anymore - as it seems. I guess it depends, I really don't know what the moderators will or will not> > OT, sorry sorry... > > (Would this posting be deleted by a private-forum moderator?) > delete. -- Tom Shelton On May 5, 6:11 am, Armin Zingler <az.nos***@freenet.de> wrote:
> MSFT pretends to work for. I also didn't ask them to remove the MDI interface Could you explain what you see as advantages of the MDI interface?> in VS 2010. Suddenly gone. Oops, one customer lost. And BTW, I don't like Like the others, I have not used it so its removal went unnoticed by me. By the way, did you know that VS2010 has support for multiple monitors? Just drag any tab (window) out of VS to another monitor. Chris Am 06.05.2010 19:22, schrieb Chris Dunaway:
> On May 5, 6:11 am, Armin Zingler <az.nos***@freenet.de> wrote: I feel handicapped if I can't move the windows around because they>> MSFT pretends to work for. I also didn't ask them to remove the MDI interface >> in VS 2010. Suddenly gone. Oops, one customer lost. And BTW, I don't like > > Could you explain what you see as advantages of the MDI interface? > Like the others, I have not used it so its removal went unnoticed by > me. are glued and maximized. One habbit working with MDI for so many years is klicking the 'restore' button, but it's not there. It's a matter of course for me, therefore it's missing. If I undock the windows, I can move them as I want but they are covering the docked windows, so that's also not an option. I feel limited with the tabbed windows. Like some sheets of papers that I'm forced to keep stacked on my desktop without being allowed to distribute them freely. > By the way, did you know that VS2010 has support for multiple Only one 30" monitor fits on my desktop.> monitors? Just drag any tab (window) out of VS to another monitor. -- Armin On May 6, 1:05 pm, Armin Zingler <az.nos***@freenet.de> wrote:
> Am 06.05.2010 19:22, schrieb Chris Dunaway: Sounds like a good excuse to get a bigger desk and another 30"> > Only one 30" monitor fits on my desktop. > monitor!!! :) Chris Am 07.05.2010 18:51, schrieb Chris Dunaway:
>> Only one 30" monitor fits on my desktop. Sure, just for VS! ;-)>> > > Sounds like a good excuse to get a bigger desk and another 30" > monitor!!! :) You don't share my MDI opinion? All you can do with the tabbed interface can be done with MDI, but not the other way round. Even if you don't make use of the MDI advantages, I don't understand why they are taken away from me. -- Armin On 2010-05-08, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote:
Show quoteHide quote > Am 07.05.2010 18:51, schrieb Chris Dunaway: Because VS2010 is written using WPF - WPF does not support mdi, therefore, no>>> Only one 30" monitor fits on my desktop. >>> >> >> Sounds like a good excuse to get a bigger desk and another 30" >> monitor!!! :) > > Sure, just for VS! ;-) > > > You don't share my MDI opinion? All you can do with the tabbed > interface can be done with MDI, but not the other way round. Even > if you don't make use of the MDI advantages, I don't understand > why they are taken away from me. > MDI in vs2010. -- Tom Shelton Am 08.05.2010 16:49, schrieb Tom Shelton:
> Because VS2010 is written using WPF - WPF does not support mdi, therefore, no This means that WPF is not an option for my applications, too. ;-)> MDI in vs2010. -- Armin On 2010-05-08, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote:
> Am 08.05.2010 16:49, schrieb Tom Shelton: Well, if you feel the need to use MDI then I guess not. But, in case you>> Because VS2010 is written using WPF - WPF does not support mdi, therefore, no >> MDI in vs2010. > > This means that WPF is not an option for my applications, too. ;-) haven't noticed - mdi has long fallen out of fashion. It's very rare to see new software with an MDI interface. -- Tom Shelton On 5/8/2010 1:31 PM, Tom Shelton wrote:
> On 2010-05-08, Armin Zingler<az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote: Which is why I know a lot of people are keeping their copies of Office >> Am 08.05.2010 16:49, schrieb Tom Shelton: >>> Because VS2010 is written using WPF - WPF does not support mdi, therefore, no >>> MDI in vs2010. >> >> This means that WPF is not an option for my applications, too. ;-) > > Well, if you feel the need to use MDI then I guess not. But, in case you > haven't noticed - mdi has long fallen out of fashion. It's very rare to see > new software with an MDI interface. > 2003. Many consider Access 2007 is a beast to them with the "improved" interface. -- Mike Am 08.05.2010 19:31, schrieb Tom Shelton:
> On 2010-05-08, Armin Zingler <az.nospam@freenet.de> wrote: Yes, unfortunatelly.>> Am 08.05.2010 16:49, schrieb Tom Shelton: >>> Because VS2010 is written using WPF - WPF does not support mdi, therefore, no >>> MDI in vs2010. >> >> This means that WPF is not an option for my applications, too. ;-) > > Well, if you feel the need to use MDI then I guess not. But, in case you > haven't noticed - mdi has long fallen out of fashion. It's very rare to see > new software with an MDI interface. I remember many people complaining about Office 2000 not being able to switch to MDI or at least to get rid of all the taskbar buttons for each open document. What's better with tabbed windows? Only that you can move a window to another screen? From my own experience, a dual screen setup (or any even number of screens) is a bad compromise. Hardly anyone has more of them. Anyway, if you maximize the IDE - who doesn't do this? - you can move the MDI windows anywhere on both screens, too. So I don't see any advantage of tabbed windows. Only a limitation. -- Armin On Tue, 04 May 2010 20:11:32 -0700, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel***@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote: >While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It The biggest problem with web forums is the decentralization. With>will be sorely missed. Usenet, there was always one single database for everything. With web servers, you have to connect to a myriad of different servers to keep up with your various subjects of interest. How hard would it be to implement an NNTP interface in the web forum server software? I can't imagine it would take a lot of effort. -- RoRo On 2010-05-08, Robert Roland <f***@ddress.no> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 May 2010 20:11:32 -0700, Tom Shelton It's actually just the opposite. USENET is very decentralized - way more so><tom_shel***@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote: > >>While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It >>will be sorely missed. > > The biggest problem with web forums is the decentralization. With > Usenet, there was always one single database for everything. With web > servers, you have to connect to a myriad of different servers to keep > up with your various subjects of interest. > then any web forum. Posts are submitted to a server and then propogated to other nttp servers. > How hard would it be to implement an NNTP interface in the web forum MS has an nntp bridge for their webforums. But, from all reports it's very> server software? I can't imagine it would take a lot of effort. slow - and if your like me and use a text only news reader (slrn+vim), then the html nature of the posts will make it unusable - unless you use a news reader that supports html. -- Tom Shelton On Sat, 08 May 2010 10:30:41 -0700, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel***@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote: >It's actually just the opposite. USENET is very decentralized - way more so Sure, but only if you look at it from a technical point of view. If>then any web forum. Posts are submitted to a server and then propogated to >other nttp servers. you look at it from a user's point of view, you connect to one server and get access to all groups, and each group will contain any post made from any server. >> How hard would it be to implement an NNTP interface in the web forum Is there any information on how to use it? My newsreader can connect>> server software? I can't imagine it would take a lot of effort. > >MS has an nntp bridge for their webforums. to several servers, so it should simply be a matter of adding one or more servers, I expect. > But, from all reports it's very Slow is not a serious problem for NNTP. In the olden days, I read news>slow - through a dial-up connection. It is, of course, convenient to be able to download a message body instantly at the press of a button, but it is not a requirement. >and if your like me and use a text only news reader (slrn+vim), then My newsreader does support HTML, but I keep the support turned off>the html nature of the posts will make it unusable - unless you use a news >reader that supports html. most of the time. With HTML support off, the reader converts the HTML to plaintext for me. I don't know enough about HTML to decide how difficult that process is, but it is certainly possible. -- RoRo Microsoft made it, it was the reason I started looking at the forums,
However, the Microsoft forums software is good enough currently to be in some cases better than NNTP https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/default.aspx?SiteID=927 Show quoteHide quote "Robert Roland" <f***@ddress.no> wrote in message news:9g6bu51929vheojnrlq5fdbtk9vg5mlgra@4ax.com... > On Tue, 04 May 2010 20:11:32 -0700, Tom Shelton > <tom_shel***@comcastXXXXXXX.net> wrote: > >>While the web interface isn't completely horrid - it's still not nntp. It >>will be sorely missed. > > The biggest problem with web forums is the decentralization. With > Usenet, there was always one single database for everything. With web > servers, you have to connect to a myriad of different servers to keep > up with your various subjects of interest. > > How hard would it be to implement an NNTP interface in the web forum > server software? I can't imagine it would take a lot of effort. > -- > RoRo On Sat, 8 May 2010 19:34:17 +0200, "Cor Ligthert[MVP]"
<Notmyfirstn***@planet.nl> wrote: >Microsoft made it, it was the reason I started looking at the forums, Thanks.> >However, the Microsoft forums software is good enough currently to be in >some cases better than NNTP > >https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/default.aspx?SiteID=927 It seems they implemented this with a piece of client software that needs to be installed on my PC. How utterly, spectacularly insane! What they have to do, is to run software on the server that emulates an NNTP server, so that any NNTP reader on any platform can connect. -- RoRo 
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